The headlines are everywhere. You seriously can’t miss it, even if you deliberately set out to NOT find it.
It’s a Mormon feminist controversy that’s triggering debates, memes, articles, furiously-written status updates, and doubts. It all started with a movement called Ordain Women, and since then it’s transformed and morphed into conversations about possible pending excommunications, human rights, sexism, and faults within the way the Mormon church is run.
I’ve sat back since writing my first article regarding Mormon feminists and have simply watched it happen, realizing that if I stay on board this train it might negatively impact my readers. And from the looks of other blogs, other Mormon writers, and even other friends who simply continue to voice opinions on how the church needs to change, I can see that I was right. This conversation is not just a church conversation now. It’s a world conversation. And it’s hurting more than Mormon feminists.
On what started out as a cry for understanding among church leaders has now taken a turn to be a cry into the world, prompting non-members and those of different faiths to feel sorry for us, fight harder against our teachings, and look toward the Mormon church with distaste. Friends of mine who at one point took genuine interest in learning about my church now see the articles and the heatwave from this controversy and say beneath their breath, “Looks like I was right all along. It’s a man’s church.”
And it’s not. We’re spreading lies–most of the time unintentionally.
Now I’m an advocate for questions. As a journalist it’s in my nature to be quizzical *and often skeptical* and to always ask “Well, why’s that?”. But I also firmly believe that you need to pay attention to who you’re asking the questions to, and what your motive behind the question is. Your question might be someone else’s stumbling block.
The group of women who first rose up with this question had every right to ask the questions within their church community, to their bishops, counselors, home teachers, or spouses. They had every right to pray and ask of God and to do scripture searching and soul searching to identify their pains, seek answers, and find peace. But the opportunity left as soon as packs of people demanded to be let in to priesthood session, held signs in public that non-members in passing could read and shake their heads at, spoke to newspaper reporters about the oppression of the church, and spoke negatively about a church they often say they love. Questions turned into protests and backlash and anger that were soon fanning the flames of contempt against an already misunderstood gospel.
And it breaks my heart.
I’ve seen bloggers and columnists say that it breaks their hearts that these feminists are hurting. I understand that.
But it breaks my heart even more that these personal struggles are thwarting God’s work. What should have been a personal journey for answers has turned into a hiccup for my friend who had one foot in the door and now hesitates to believe me when I say that I’m an equal with my husband. It has turned into debates about equality instead of conversations about a loving Heavenly Father who values his daughters and sons equally and gives them such significant roles in life. It has turned missionaries away from doors because of misconceptions, and it has turned active members into bitter, saddened skeptics who listen to the voices screaming from the internet rather than the gentle, truthful voice of the spirit.
When Christ walked the earth, not once did he sit before his disciples and spark doubt by asking one of them why something had to be. In fact, in the darkest of times, even the times when he felt betrayed by God, he went on his knees before anything–privately communing with the One who gives answers to all questions. It’s okay, obviously, to discuss issues among those whom you trust or who might have advice or an answer to help you, but why discuss things among those whom you’re trying to uplift, strengthen, or teach? Especially on social media, when countless eyes are watching you and learning about your religion through what you say?
We’re forgetting who we are.
We’re forgetting why we’re here.
And worst of all–we’re hurting those we’ve been sent to help. And that’s the biggest shame of all.
all our lemmony things 
I grew up in the LDS church and struggled with it when I moved to Utah at the age of 13. I pushed myself to go up until the day I graduated college. When I returned home I had experienced so many negative experiences in the church because of personal revelations I had had. The prophets have stated that each of us have the ability to receive revelation if we ask. If the group OW has asked and they received personal revelation that they deserve some type of power to bless then there is going to be a disconnect between their revelation and the Prophet’s. Therefore it may be why they are continuing to press the matter.
There has been a debate on the restriction of Priesthood Power from blacks and the church came out and said that Prophet’s can sometimes be wrong and that that ban was misguided. I believe it was back in 2011 or 2012. I can try to find the article. They unfortunately have opened the door to people using the fact that Prophet’s are human beings and can be misguided in their beliefs in order to cast doubt on them. Joseph Smith and Brigham young even ordained blacks with the Priesthood and it wasn’t until later that they were stripped of that right.
So I’m conflicted because how do we know if the Prophet really prayed about this and received a no answer? What if he simply didn’t receive an answer at all? Is it then a no or is it God giving him the power to choose? And if he was given the power to choose one would hope he’d give the rights to women but it doesn’t look that way.
This is why I’ve decided that I need to be the best person I can be, try to be spiritual and if my daughter needs a blessing call the men that can give her one, but that doesn’t deter me from bestowing a mother’s blessing on her. It’s more so a prayer asking for healing for my child, and I believe that God gave us women that power at least. Just because you may not be ordained doesn’t mean that you don’t have the ability to seek those blessings on your own.
I know there are also books that delve into the fact that women had the ability to bless in the beginning of the church and even had a great great Grandmother I believe that was given the ability to bless. If it was given to women before what changed to make it be taken away? Is it really wrong for women who have received their own revelation to continue to ask the Prophet when they know in their hearts that the Priesthood is something they feel they deserve?
As a previous poster wrote the equal to motherhood is fatherhood. The Priesthood IS NOT the same as motherhood. I feel like us saying that just validates men into thinking as long as they are worthy they don’t have to help out in the home. Being a mom is hard, and having a man with the ability to bless is great but definitely doesn’t help in terms of cleaning the home or tending and playing with the kids. Those kids need more than just a blessing. They need love and affection from their FATHER not priest.
I just wish that the world would be open instead of judgmental, and vicious to those that share differing opinions. Has anyone ever thought that God has formed so many religions so that we can learn to live peacefully with one another even though our beliefs may be different? Instead we fight and bring others down. The God that I’ve been taught about was just, but I believe he would have wanted us to live peacefully. What if the test we’ve been given isn’t just to find the correct faith. What if it’s to truly live in peace and not judge one another?
The LDS church has taught that Jesus was the one that suggested we come to earth and have free agency and volunteered to come down to pay for our sins so that we could repent. The church places so many restrictions on a person that it in turn has taken away the free agency they teach about. Suggestions have become qualifiers and people have come to pick and choose on what things they’ll follow from the scriptures. This was not the church I was raised in. This is a church that is trying to desperately hold on to values that don’t change yet the reason we have Prophets is so that we can get modern day revelations.
I’m rambling at this point but I just feel so sorry for all the people that feel mistreated within the church. I felt judged every Sunday for about 12 years and it wasn’t until I decided to leave that I became more at peace, happier and more spiritual. I just hope that this debate ends soon because the world is already a terrible place a lot of times. I’d hate to see that negativity and evil carry over even more into people’s religious beliefs.
If you are a member of the LDS church wether or not you have been born in it or converted, you know the doctrine, and by continuing to stay in the church when you do not agree with it’s dogma is your problem not the LDS church’s. According to the LDS church only the Prophet changes policies in the church. To be threatened excommunication and other disciplinary actions for asking questions and taking a stance that doesn’t sit well with the Presidency—why do you want to stay in a church that treats you this way anyway? I don’t understand this fighting for women to hold the “Priesthood”. How many years have church members known this doctrine? If you don’t like how you are being threatened and put down and not being listened to, then why stay in a religion that causes you feel less-than? ! for one could care less any more about the “Priesthood” for women issue. The fact that it took the Church so long to change the doctrine for blacks is still baffling to me. The LDS church will always color how I see the world and myself, but I refuse to be bullied by asking questions and studying history. This Priesthood thing is only the tip of the iceberg. It is just not an issue for me because I have moved on with my life and surround myself with people who do not judge me because I am female, in my 40’s, unmarried, and have no children. I don’t think there is anyone lower than what I am in this church this day and age…thank goodness the homosexual population is getting some attention. Personally, I am glad to be away from it all and have found a place where I can be who I am, not judged and worship the God of my understanding and believe in the illuminated souls such as Jesus Christ in my own way where I have no threats or judgement. I wish those who choose to stay in the LDS church the very best. I am blessed to have the light of real truth and knowledge and am following a different path–even bringing with me nuggets of the LDS church that I can keep and call my own in my peace of mind. God bless everyone to find the place they belong –in the church or beyond it.
I’m sad to read your comments. Because I can hear the anger and bitterness. I must respond, however, to how you portray the discplinary courts of the Church, and the inference that individuals are threatened with excommunication or disciplinary actions for asking questions – because is truly far off the mark. The reality is that questions (in the case of the individuals in Ordain Women) were allowed. They were also ANSWERED. And the answer was, “No, Sisters, you will not be ordained to the priesthood.” The problems arose, then, when these individuals did not accept that answer. We all ask God questions, we go to Him with our petitions. He answers every question, answers every prayer. Sometimes, though, the answer is “No.” I find it hard to accept someone say, “I am a faithful member of the Church,” and then turn around and refuse to accept the counsel they are given by those they, ostensibly, believe to be prophets, seers and revelators…who speak for He who is the Head of this Church, and who leads it. As a faithful Latter-day Saint I believe that the men called to lead this Church have been done so by direction of Jesus Christ. If that is the case then, how can I pick and choose from what they counsel from the pulpit as to what I will accept? This is not a “cafeteria faith” where one Sunday school class teaches something more liberal than another, where one bishop interprets doctrine differently than a bishop from another state or country. If you accept the Gospel, you accept it in its entirety, and strive to live its teachings. If priesthood ordination is more important to someone than following priesthood counsel, then perhaps that person’s faith is not as strong as they claim. There are many religious organizations where women hold priesthood offices (I do not believe, however, that those women hold priesthood AUTHORITY). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, however, is not one of them. It comes down to the individual…what they truly believe and how they live it.
In my own experience I was threatened with disciplinary action by asking questions — so it wasn’t off the mark for me. I nave picked and choose from counsel– and God has always answered my prayers. This is whyI don’t care what the Authorities in the church decide about women– and the rest of it because I know full well what the church teaches and what is doctrine and I have the right to choose if I want to accept it or leave it. I am happy with the choices I have made.
Yes,,,, this is they way … I will always follow this .. I am a women of faith…I believe the truth is here on earth.. Why would I not want to follow the true church… My future is in this gospel.. C.Skinner
dp – I have been reading all these the wonderful insights and all I can say is, ‘ Thank God for alcohol!’
Thank you for this comment. I was raised Mormon in the church. As a young girl, I would ask “What if I don’t want children?” only to be told that it was god’s plan for women to have children, and if possible, several (so, what if I *can’t* have children? Does that make me useless?). I was looked down upon for dating a east Indian man in high school – incredibly intelligent, and sweet, and helped me become a better student and person. I asked my Young Woman’s teacher why people felt it was wrong I date someone who isn’t Mormon, but is an incredibly good person, only to be taught that we wouldn’t work out because our religions are different and that he couldn’t have been considered a truly good person unless he were Mormon (????). I was consistently treated as if I were a bad person, simply because I liked dark clothes and makeup in high school – yet I never drank, smoked, or was having sex, yet I would observe other young men and women doing all those things (aside from sex, I’d only hear about that 🙂 ), and seeing their parents go up and give talks about how their children were angels while I was considered a suicide case (I was a very happy person!). Girls camp would equate to cooking, lame crafts/scrapbooking, and writing out what kind of man you want to marry (….really?), while I would hear from my brother they got to do archery and horseback riding. I went to BYU in Utah, and had a bishop tell me my bright red hair was a result of bad parenting (my parents were wonderful). My entire teachings in that church seemed to revolve around finding a good man to take care of me, and have tons of children as young as possible (you know, before you can actually live some form of a life and LEARN things on your own to pass on that knowledge to your children). I must add, I feel there’s nothing wrong with wanting a family, and scrapbooking, talking about future husbands, etc… What I DO disagree with, is pushing that on young women as if those are the *only* real things of value they should be striving for. Women are people who are capable of being more than delicate little flower who need to be sheltered from everything. We should be looked at for who we strive to be, whether that be a mother, a doctor, a video game designer, a homemaker, a poet, a gun nut, an animal lover, an athlete, a great cook, or any combinations of those! So long as you remain a good person in heart, mind, and through your actions.
What I’ve learned over the years is, that church simply didn’t work for me. I was very bitter shortly after leaving the church at about 20 years old, but now I know it’s simply not something I want to be a part of. I personally felt the culture, though full of many good people, was also generally a very toxic and judgmental culture. That is simply my opinion, but I know that others feel very loved and very blessed to be in and part of the church. Those are very wonderful things that shouldn’t be looked down upon! That should be appreciated and admired.
If you are going to be part of a church, ANY church, you should accept everything that comes with it. The prophet of that religion is the only one who can officially call the shots, and if you are unhappy with those decisions, then you should simply separate yourself from that world. Life is much too short to feel as if you are being forced to be a person you know you aren’t. Again, be who you want to be. Not everyone needs a church to be a good and loving person.
Cheers, and thank you for saying this.
I am an active member of the church, and I agree with everything you’ve said here. Thank you. Many in the church can be very judgmental, and many outside can also be judgmental of members (just an example – have a very close friend who would never drink around me or invite me when he’s drinking because he said I would judge him, when in reality I just wanted to spend time with my friend no matter what he did. He judged me, that I would judge him).
Anyway, i have found that the culture of Mormonism you spoke of is mostly found in Utah because there are so many of us. This is unfortunate and does make me angry and embarrassed as an active member. The church is not like this outside of Utah, as I experienced on my mission. Those things that you were told about bad parenting and and observing those parents talk about their “obedient” children are wrong. The negative ways that many Mormons act are not taught in the church, it’s just human nature and they’re too blind to look in the mirror and recognize their selfishness.
I wish you happiness in your life however you try to pursue it. Thank you for your comments again, and you can rest assured that there are many active members, including myself, who know exactly where you are coming from. God bless you!
I agree with some of your comments
The culture is of the people and people in this mortal life will never be perfect we will always be subject to our carnal desires be it a bowl of ice cream or something sensual. we are carnal imperfect beings and everyone of us is different and has different opinions of what is right and wrong.
The Gospel is perfect Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice is perfect. I am appalled that some church members and leaders have given their opinions as fact. Traditions are hard things to overcome in any part of life its like a bad habit its hard to overcome and slow to leave.
Katie I am sorry how you got treated when you was active, I kind of know how you felt, me personally I hated going to church because of how I got treated. but one thing I have learned is that “we don’t go to church for the people we go to church to learn more about Christ and to draw closer to Christ and feel his love.” and your right you don’t have to have a church to be a good person. I’m not judging you if it sounds like it I am sorry. but also it can be very good to have church in your life besides having good friends in or out of the church. I agree I don’t see what is wrong with dating someone that is a different color or race whether member or not. you never know maybe that person will want to learn of the gospel and be converted if not no big deal that doesn’t make them less important . I hope that things will get better for you! and I hope that a least you didn’t stop believing in god and Jesus Christ. I hope that you forgave those people that hurt you not just for them but also for yourself so your life will be more happy and peaceful. may god be with you and hope you feel his love surround you.
Nic, LittleBigP, Lary, thank you for your support and understanding. People like you are incredibly civil and kind, and are the reason why I do come to defense of everyone, including Mormons, when I hear they are unjustly being attacked. My family is still all very active and my immediate family is so very kind and outgoing, I can’t help but recognize the decency that the culture promotes in the right kind of people.
Leah, I also appreciate your comments. You are only trying to express your beliefs and concern over me. However, all I want to say in response is, how you feel is how you feel, and it does not entirely apply to me. I have felt nothing but love, trust, and confidence in myself and who I am *after* leaving the Mormon faith. I have put my faith in myself, and humankind, rather than Jesus or God. I’m trying to say, things are in fact better for me now. I am incredibly happy, in a loving relationship where I am treated as an equal, and respected as such. I have completely forgiven those people that I felt wronged me in my teens and college years because I have managed to find strength elsewhere – in myself and those I love around me. I find it admirable that people can believe so strongly that a higher power has given them these things, but I have found that the gifts I have been given come directly from the strength and love my parents have passed down to me, and my ability to seek out and follow through with goals and aspirations.
Wherever a person learns to love those around them, without prejudice, should never be looked down upon or changed because you personally feel it isn’t “right” or “misguided”. If it does not coincide with your own beliefs, that should not be seen as an attack on your or your own faith, but should at least be looked upon with respect – I’m sure such respect would be returned to you in kind.
I have read the comments listed below. The women who are in question have every right to ask questions. They say that they are faithful women of the church, yet they went out of their way to say that you don’t have to listen to everything that the Prophet of Christ’s church teaches. Their questions were answered. Our belief is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the same church that Christ established when he walked the earth. Because of the apostasy that took place in the early church the keys of the priesthood were removed from the earth. They were restored through Joseph Smith and that is why we are called Latter Day Saints. When Christ set up his church here on earth he had twelve apostles and not one of them was a woman. The women of this church belong to one of the biggest women organizations on the earth, it is called Relief Society. We do more for the poor and suffering than any other women’s group. We provide food, blankets, hygiene kits, school kits, hats and coats to people around the world who are in need and suffering. We conduct in our youth meetings, we give talks from the pulpit in church and we offer prayers. Women are respected and loved in this church. God’s laws do not change because we live in what we call the modern age. We live in a world where sin is considered good and good people who believe that God’s laws do not change, are considered evil. These women set out to oppose the beliefs of the church, they are in opposition to the teachings. The issue of women holding the priesthood is nothing new. Every decade someone brings it up again. Please be kind when you respond to people. Everyone should be able to believe in God the way they see is best for them and know one should call them names for doing so. Thank you.
I don’t think it was the answering questions or even doubting the teaching but in the way they did it. The church was started by Joseph Smith asking questions and doubting what was being taught, the difference between the two is how it was done.
As in regards to the blacks obtaining the priesthood I have often thought about this as well and one reason that I can come to is that if they were given it sooner the church leaders could have been killed or the church could have been destroyed. This would be due to the way things were at the time and it would seem like the church was trying to change it. I’m not saying I agree with the standard, all I am saying that if they themselves tried to change it then the church could have been destroyed and the earth lead into apostasy again.
So I think the Lord and Heavenly Father know what they are doing in regards to church teachings and practices and if later down the line if policies are changed then I will stand by the new policies.
I used to be LDS as well, I was practically raised in the church, mostly forced by my new step mom after my dad got married. For 10 years I wouldn’t get baptized and finally at 15, I decided I probably should. I was having issues with my real mother and had just started high school and wanted to fit in somewhere. As I was getting baptized, I realized it was for the wrong reasons and I should not be doing it but I went ahead with it anyway, assuming I’d feel what everyone else seem to feel eventually. There are quite a few things I didn’t agree with in the LDS church as I became my own person, but one of them was the biggest and why I won’t go back. My dad and my step mom got married, she is LDS and he isn’t. Her previous husband who passed away was and they had been sealed in the temple. My dad won’t ever become Mormon, but if he did, he can’t be sealed to my step mom, the love of his life, because women for some reason can only be sealed one time while men can be sealed multiple times… It makes absolutely no sense and I asked my church leaders, in young women’s and all the way up to the bishop and everyone just said, ” it’ll work out” and that isn’t good enough for me. She is supposed to be with her other husband for “time and all eternity” and my dad gets what? Nothing. At least from the way that Mormons believe. Women don’t get the rights of men. It is a man’s church.
Jen – this is no longer true. It has been recognized that women who have been sealed to husbands, some abusive, some not, who are then remarried in this life must have a choice. Why would a loving Heavenly Father condemn a woman to all eternity with a man she did not love? (The abuser would likely not be worthy of that sealing for eternity anyway.) Either way, women need an opportunity to decide their eternal fate, and they have it. I’m not suggesting your step mom’s first husband was abusive, just that would justify the recognition for the need to seal women to more than one man, right? If your Dad were to join the church and obtain a temple recommend, your step mom could be sealed to him. Ask your local stake leaders, or a temple president. In this way, a woman, though sealed to more than one man on earth will have the choice which sealing she wants to have in effect for eternity.
@jen, you are right that she came be sealed to more than one man at the same time and that has to do with both men having a priesthood line and authority that both can’t act in the same home at the same time. It is the same reason we don’t have two bishops in a ward.
What Kathy said was half right, your mom can’t be sealed to both but she could have the first sealing cancelled before the second is completed or she could wait for the Millennium to figure out which husband she wants to spend eternity with.
So men can basically “have it all” with the option spend all eternity with more than one woman, so a woman MUST choose just one? There’s not anything inherently sexist in that? Also, according to your reasoning, this occurs only because men have the priesthood. So, this would seem to be a prime example of sexism for all eternity.
@Mina- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob all had multiple wives as permitted by God and no one questions their righteousness. Joseph Smith and Brigham young both had multiple wives but still received revelation. I don’t presume to know all the reasons why men can be sealed to more wives and not vice versa in eternity. What I have never heard is that polygamy is a requirement, meaning that if you and your exalted husband don’t want multiple wives in your eternal marriage, then you won’t have to.
Again Mina, I am not required to justify our doctrines to nonmembers. If you don’t like them then don’t get baptized. If you are a member, I am sensing a bit of resentment and internal conflict with doctrines. I still say that private questions need perseverance and not demanding or pestering of the leaders for revelation the Lord hasn’t seen fit to give yet.
Please, tell me where the ‘doctrine’ that women in the church can’t hold the priesthood is located. Where does it say so in the Book of Mormon? How about the Doctrine and Covenants? What chapter and verse, please? President Hinckley said that the policy on women having the priesthood could change, if God revealed that that’s what he wanted. He said there was no agitation for it, though. Well, now there is agitation.
President Hinkley didn’t say the answer would be yes if there was agitation for it. That’s where OW tried to read between the lines to further push their own agenda Also, now that there has been agitation OW had been answered by the leaders NOW. The answer is no.
Ann – the scriptures also don’t tell us directly that we “can’t” have abortions (as an example) either, but we still know it’s not OK. If we are looking for direct examples in the scriptures to every detail of our lives, we will be disappointed. We have to follow the Spirit of the Law, rather than the letter. The scriptures tell us murder is wrong – hence we apply that to the unborn as well, and not try to “justify” under what circumstances murder might be OK. The scriptures tell us the Priesthood is for worthy men – hence we apply that to mean just that, and not try to justify all the other situations where it might be given outside of that.
Unless, of course, you’re Nephi, then it’s okay to murder, right? The scriptures are full of contradicting stories, which is why we look to prophets, which is why OW has asked that the prophets ASK GOD. Which has never actually been done on this particular issue. So, we don’t have any scripture banning female priesthood-holding, we have examples of it happening in the past, and the First Presidency and the Apostles have never actually gotten together to ask God for clarification. What, exactly, has OW done that is so terrible, given these sets of facts?
Mina – go back and brush up on the story of Nephi slaying Laban. That was not Nephi’s idea, in fact he struggled with it. If the Lord wants to make an exception to his own laws for the greater good, He will. “Better one man die (woman be excommunicated) than an entire generation dwindle in unbelief”. What OW did was PREACH their false doctrine via many sources and on many occasions, as though they had some greater authority or insight than the Prophet. Remember the destruction to the church being done by Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah? They were chastised, humbled, repented and then had to undo all the damage they had done.
@Ann T- You are twisting his words. He said multiple times that it is not in the program, but as a caveat that God could change it. That goes literally for any commandment. He is God which means He can change whatever He wants. That doesn’t mean He will. None of us are trying to limit God, but respect the revelation His leaders have given, and that is that women aren’t supposed to be ordained. That much is crystal clear.
The lies Mormons are spreading are so much more fundamental than whether or not it’s a man’s church. Your religion spreads lies about Jesus (who IS God) Himself. About the creator of the universe. The Mormon religion IS a man’s church because it was invented by a MAN so it only makes sense that the world would view it this way. I thank God that controversies like this arise to protect the vulnerable and turn them off from joining the LDS church. That’s what this is. These words sound harsh, but they are true. And I beg you to ask God, to really truly ask Him, whether or not they are true. Look through the Bible (not the Book of Mormon or any of your other books) and really challenge what you believe. The Bible is God’s word and, therefore, the authority on what is true and untrue. If you really seek the truth with an open mind, you’ll find that you CANNOT believe every word of the Bible and still remain a Mormon. God’s word makes it clear that Mormonism is false teaching. Please don’t let yourself be led away from the truth any longer.
Have you actually read the Book of Mormon? Have you prayed about whether it’s true or not? Have you actually tried to live a Mormon life to see for yourself if it’s true or not?
These are actual questions. I’m not trying to attack.
Reading the Book of Mormon and praying about whether it is true or not is the exercise of a demented mind.
I have studied the Bible and I know it to be true so far as it is translated correctly. I also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. In high school I would go to seminary at 5:30 every morning where one year we would study the New Testament, another year the Old Testament, another the Book of Mormon, and the other year we would study modern day revelations (if God is the same yesterday, today, and forever it just makes sense he would give revelation to a prophet in our day as well). We give no preference to the Book of Mormon in any aspect of our religion but we always use it as a companion to the Bible. I have prayed to our Heavenly Father to know if The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was true and the answer I received was an overwhelming and wonderful confirmation that it is! Please, do not tell members of the church if they pray they will know it’s wrong because most chances are they already have and have received the answer the church, the Book of Mormon, and the Bible are all true. Only when you pray with a sincere heart and with real intent will you receive the answers to your prayers. All churches that teach of Christ have some truth and are good but only one is His church that he restored THROUGH a man. If you believe the Bible you know all the prophets established churches too and received revelation. He has only done the same in this dispensation. If you do not believe God would have prophets today and establish His church as He did many years ago, how do you say you believe the Bible to be true?
Oh sweetie….
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Wow, THAT is great! You spend all of your time trolling Mormon websites, pulling together your shoddy defense, and spreading lies and vitriol. Take your pseudo-intellectualism and go somewhere else, Troll. Please don’t let yourself be led away from the truth any longer.
Have you ever been a member of the Mormon church? How do you know so much about it?
Vivi, I believe the Bible and love it and because of that I know the Book of Mormon to be true. The Book of Mormon testifies of the truth of the Bible. If you believe the Bible then which prophet do you believe in today? The Bible came from prophets and apostles who are a part of God’s ministry to His people in all times and ages. Since He does not change, who do you believe is His prophet today? I know the history of the Bible and the changes that occurred in doctrine after the apostles were killed. The early Saints followed Christ and His church that He organized with prophets and apostles. Read your Bible. You CAN “believe every word of the Bible” and not only be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints but enjoy a better understanding of God and His plan for all of His children. Have a great day!
I would suggest you read the Bible. It clearly teaches that Christ and the Father are two separate and distinct beings and that the Holy Spirit is a unique individual as well. Why in the Garden of Gethsemane would Jesus pray to himself for relief? Why at his baptism would he pray to himself to send himself to himself? Who were the two beings standing side by side seen by Timothy when he was being stoned to death? It’s too bad that at Nicea the church decided to come up with a watered down religion based on trying to please everyone instead of accepting as truth what is plainly stated in the Bible.
Can you quote or tell me what the Nicean creed says?
Hey Vivi,
I would love to clear some things up with you 🙂 Jesus is not God. Jesus is the Son of God. While yes, we do know that Jesus created the earth and all things on earth, we know He is not God. God and Jesus are two separate beings with separate bodies. And no, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was not created by man. The Mormon church has been around since before the times of Adam and Eve. After Christ was crucified, the Gospel and priesthood were taken off of the earth until Joseph Smith knelt in fervent prayer and God and Jesus both appeared to him and told him what to do to restore the true church back on earth. So yes, while man did help restore the Gospel, man did not create the Gospel.
I am just curious, what religion are you? If you are to say to ask God if our teachings are true but saying that we shouldn’t read The Book Of Mormon..? I have read the Bible, and yes it is true. But I have also read the Book of Mormon and I did pray to God asking if it was true. And it is! I don’t know of any book that is more true. You beg us to read and pray, so I am doing the same to you. Please read the Book of Mormon and pray to God about it. Ask Him if it is true.
Please let me know if you have any more questions or comments or anything. I would love to talk with you 🙂
The Bible would contradict what what you are saying Meg. Jesus IS God. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16). Why do you think the Jewish leaders wanted Jesus dead? Because He was claiming to BE God. The Latin verb incarnarte means“to make flesh.” When Christians say that Jesus is God “Incarnate,” we mean that the Son of God took on a fleshly, bodily form (John 1:14). Jesus was fully man AND fully God.
As far as praying to ask if the Book of Mormon is true I’d need to first, look at the verse in Moroni 10:4 which says to ask God “if these things are NOT true . . . ” It is not asking to see if these things ARE true. So, when a Mormon prays about the Book Mormon to see if it is “not” true and he receives a confirmation, then has it not been established that the book Mormon is not true?
Second, the Bible NEVER tells us to pray about spiritual truth. Instead, the Bible tells us to compare all things with Scripture (Acts 17:11; 2 Tim. 3:16) because it is through the word of God that we have spiritual truths revealed to us. Furthermore, the Bible tells us that our hearts are desperately wicked and deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9), and that we are to be very cautious about trusting it–which is why praying about truth and getting a feeling is so dangerous. Of course, a Mormon will say that when they’re praying to God, they will receive an answer from God. But this is only a hopeful assumption. Think about it. If God has told us to look at his word for truth (2 Tim. 3:16) and someone prays about the Book of Mormon in contradiction to that verse, then is he not violating the word of God? Yes, he is. Will God then answer the prayer of someone who has violated his word by essentially not trusting what God has said within its pages?
If a person prays like you are asking them to do and God tells them the Book of Mormon is a fictional book and Mormonism is not a true religion, would you leave your church?
@ Kiki – Jesus’ name before birth was Jehovah, hence why you were correct in connecting him to the I Am quote. What you neglected was that there was another God mentioned in the old testament, Elohim, who is what Jesus refers to in the NT as the Father. Jesus can be confusing in the words he chooses. He calls Elohim father, because He created Jesus. Jesus is also called father sometimes because he created this world, created our bodies with Elohim, and becomes our surrogate spiritual father due to our rebirth thru the atonement. We don’t honor man made creeds about God’s identity. They do a great job of declaring their identity without mankind screwing it up.
Have you really challenged your belief? Have you read the the Bible and the Book of Mormon? And then truly prayed to God with an open heart and mind?
You clearly don’t understand LDS doctrine. Why not study as many books as you can and then ask God if they’re his word or not? Seems to me if God had something important to tell people he’d have told more than just the Jews about his Savior he’d sent us. Hence, the Book of Mormon is a record of people on another continent who received Gods teachings. It’s not there to challenge or to replace the Bible, but rather to compliment it support it and bear testimony of it. I wouldn’t be shocked or offended if another book from yet another continent (maybe Asia) arose and were translated and taught the message of christs gospel. I’d be thrilled to hear of such a book!bit some people feel so challenged and offended cause of this second testimony… Why? “Cause the bible was here first!” Well that’s a lame argument. Why couldn’t God give you more to read and learn?
I turn your attention to John chapter 17: 20-22, Jesus Christ is the son of god and God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are 3 separate beings, Joseph Smith didn’t “invent the church” He had less then a 3rd graders schooling, so you see its pretty much impossible that he came up with it himself, you have issued us a challenge well now i issue you a challenge, By your post it is apparent you have never read the book of Mormon and probably most of the bible, I happen to have read the book of Mormon 3 times and most of the bible( i am only 16 by the way) I issue you your own challenge read the bible then read the book of Mormon, then pray with all your might mind soul and strength, and pray with an open mind, if these things are true the Lord God will let you know through the Holy Ghost, but if you pray with a closed mined believing from the begging that these things are false then you are only opening yourself up for satan to work you up one side and down the other, yes you can believe every word of the bible and book of Mormon because I am doing it now, you spake almost nothing but blasphemy in your post and therefore know little about God and his eternal plan for us these things I say unto you in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
My name is Alexander Bryson Ricks, I am 16 years old and I AM A HAPPY MORMON
Alexander Bryson Ricks, your age shows your lack of mature wisdom. The most widely used and exegetically abused verse in the New Testament by Mormons is James 1:5.
“But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all men generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.” (James 1:5).Mormons typically quote this verse in support of praying about the Book of Mormon as is suggested within its pages.
“And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things,” (Moroni 10:4).
Let’s take a look at two things. First, the verse in Moroni 10:4 says to ask God “if these things are NOT true . . . ” It is not asking to see if these things ARE true. So, when a Mormon prays about the Book Mormon to see if it is “not” true and he receives a confirmation, then has it not been established that the book Mormon is not true?
Second, the Bible never tells us to pray about spiritual truth. Instead, the Bible tells us to compare all things with Scripture (Acts 17:11; 2 Tim. 3:16) because it is through the word of God that we have spiritual truths revealed to us. Furthermore, the Bible tells us that our hearts are desperately wicked and deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9), and that we are to be very cautious about trusting it–which is why praying about truth and getting a feeling is so dangerous. Of course, the Mormons will say that when they’re praying to God, they will receive an answer from God. But this is only a hopeful assumption. Think about it. If God has told us to look at his word for truth (2 Tim. 3:16) and someone prays about the Book of Mormon in contradiction to that verse, then is he not violating the word of God? Yes, he is. Will God then answer the prayer of someone who has violated his word by essentially not trusting what God has said within its pages?
@Kiki – Wow. Your last comments are not only unconnected to the topic, they are pointless to faithful latter day saints, and are surprisingly easy to refute. I think you pulled from the easy page of exmormmon.org’s “issues with Mormons” page.
First you tell us that when we get answers to prayers, that Moroni’s promise is a negative, so the answered prayer actually means that God is saying the Book of Mormon is not true. Then follow that by the logic that the bible never mentions to ask God for truth in prayer, which obliterates your point about the receiving an answer about the Book of Mormon in prayer.
In response to Moroni’s promise, it is called a negating condition statement. It was used as an alternative expression to simply making a condition statement or asking a conditional question. The emphasis in the statement or question is not on the word not, but on the word “true”, signifying that you asking or stating that it is true. It happens in Shakespeare and other old world writings.
Secondly you mention not trusting the heart. Just because sin or the love of sin is in the heart doesn’t mean that the Holy Ghost doesn’t communicate with us there. In Matt 16 Jesus asks His disciples who the people are saying that He is. Peter responds by saying that they have various opinions, but that Peter knows that, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” We believe that the Holy Ghost is the only way to know any truth about the gospel, Jesus Christ, or the Father. Whether the Holy Ghost is talking to the heart, the mind, or the elbow, the Holy Ghost has power to convict us of truth, which is what Moroni is asking us to seek out.
let me correct your knowledge….Jesus is the son of God, not God…the LDS church is not a mans church, but a church of beliefs for men and woman. The Bible is a word from God, and The Book of Mormon, just reinforces that knowledge. It was written and founded by a man who asked questions, and was given the true knowledge, and it is not false teachings. You obviously did not go to your Heavenly Father with true intent in your questions. I think your mind was already made up, not to believe this religion. We all have a purpose of things to do in the Gospel, and some things a woman cannot do that a man can, but by the same respect, their are things a woman can do, that a man cannot. No one will break your arm to choose not to except the Gospel, but to put out such negative words about something you know nothing about, just baffles me.
Well if I choose to reject the Mormon gospel in this life won’t someone do a baptism by proxy for me so I can have a second chance to choose? I know plenty about the Mormon faith? Do you? Which first vision account do you believe in the first or the eighth version? Did Joseph really look into a hat to translated the BOM?
Kiki – it’s unlikely that your temple work would just be done for you as a general rule. It would be up to your progenitors to submit your name for the work to be done. Don’t count on anyone to provide you with a “second chance”. Chances are, if you reject it in this life, you may reject it on the other side, too.
Hahaha this is why i love religious fights (except in the middle east, its getting a little too insane over there). I was raised mormon and it is a man’s church, obviously with the polygomy never actually being abolished and multiple other doctrines that retard others rights, namely women ( and blacks befor the 80’s. But the bible is so obviously created by a bunch of power struggling men too, and if some would actually read it they would realize it too. Thr old testament constantly compared women with the likes of chattle and objects to be possed(unless they weren’t virgins of course) and completely called for slavery. Even in the new testament, the bible still calls for ownership of people. So my question is, what do u say to people like me who have read the bible(many bibles in fact, but we can stick the holy bible for convienience) and have understood some of the morally terrible things they call for?
Times change. Think about the audience that the Bible was written for. It was written to tell stories to poor farmers who couldn’t read, and who had probably never been more then 10 miles away from their birthplace in their entire lives. You take a person as simple as that, and try to explain the complex workings of a galaxy and stars planets and chemicals, far away things and places to them. In time for them to go back out and feed their cows and get all their chores done before dark, when its time for bed. That is why all the old churches in Europe have stories set into the stained glass windows and walls of the church, it was another opportunity to tell a story and teach a lesson from the bible. The Bible calls for women to be treated as property because at that time that’s what they were. What man at that time wouldn’t value his property more than his own life? It was how he fed his family, how he helped his neighbor, what he did everyday all day long. Also, if you believe that the Mormon church still practices polygamy, you’re sorely outdated. It’s illegal, in the church, the state, and country.
Technically ALL churches were “invented” by a man – God. Mormons believe that Jesus is a God, just as his father GOD is. The Book of Mormon is a companion book to the Bible, and simply adds to the story of Christ. Have you studied all religions in order to rule them all out? If you do no know everything there is to know about a religion, how can you comment that it is wrong? I have studied the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon, the Qu’ran, and the Hebrew Bible. I am not a member of any faith, but I know about them and how they have come to be, how they are run, what their beliefs are.
My point is that your statement contains falsehoods and therefor calls into question the truthfulness of the rest of your opinion.
Vivi, there is no other way to try to convert someone than through LOVE, pure love and charity that Christ showed us how to have.
Your comments show no love toward members of the LDS church whatsoever. They are demeaning to things that are sacred to them. If you honestly believe in Christ and the Bible and your Christisn religion with that much zeal that you’d like others to convert and feel the joy that you feel, then you would not go about trying to convert those people by bashing their beliefs. There is no reason for this. God knows your motivations, and He will simply not help you in your missionary efforts if you go about it in this way. Love is the only way, and people can tell your motivations in the first 30 seconds of talking to you if you love them or not. Teach YOUR doctrine and YOUR beliefs to convert people. Play offense, not defense.
Interesting you say that the Church was invented by a man so it would be viewed as a man’s church. I assume you are referring to Joseph Smith. Who started Christianity? Christ – a man. A god, of course. But he wasn’t walking around with a woman’s body. He was a man with flesh and bones. And He taught that men, women, old, young, Jew and gentile are all children of God and are equal in His eyes. That’s what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches.
So your saying Jesus Christ had a multi personality disorder. Because he sure did pray a lot to the his father (who you believe was himself weird.) Also what in the Bible disproves the Book of Mormon? I read both and have read them both many times and i have never found anything that contradicts the other. please let me know….
Bob,
Here are just a few places where the Book of Mormon contradicts what the Bible:
The Bible plainly states that the gospel, with its inclusion of Gentiles, was not fully revealed until after Christ’s death.
Eph. 3:3-7 Paul writes “by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: whereof I was made a minister …… (See also Col. 1:26; 1 Peter 1: 1-12; Romans 16:25-26)
However, the Book of Mormon maintains that this knowledge was had in 545 B.C.
2 Nephi 25:19 “For according to the words of the prophets, the Messiah cometh… his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God. … (v.23) For we labor… to persuade… our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
2 Nephi 26:12 “And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus in the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;”
2 Nephi 30:2 “For behold, I say unto you that as many of the Gentiles as will repent are the covenant people of the Lord; and as many of the Jews as will not repent shall be cast off,”
2 Nephi 31:17 “For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and the Holy Ghost.”
During Jesus’ ministry He spoke of His church as something in the future.
Matthew 16:18 “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
After Christ’s resurrection and the day of Pentecost we read “And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” (Acts 2:47)
However, the Book of Mormon claims the Christian church was established as early as 147 B.C.
Mosiah 18:17 “And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward.”
The Bible says believers were first called Christians after Paul’s ministry in Antioch.
Acts 11:26 “And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.”
However, the Book of Mormon claims people were known by this title as early as 73 B.C.
Alma 46:15 “…yea, all those who were true believes in Christ took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians as they were called, because of their belief in Christ who should come.”
The Holy Ghost was bestowed on the Christians at the time of Pentecost.
Luke 24:49 “And, behold, I send the promise of my Father unto you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”
Acts 2:1-4 “And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. … And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,…”
Yet the Book of Mormon claims that people received the gift of the Holy Ghost as early as 545 B.C.
2 Nephi 31:12-13 “…the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me… Wherefore, my beloved brethren,… by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost;…”
In the Old Testament the only ones who could be priests were the descendants of Levi, one of the twelve sons of Israel.
Numbers 3:9-10 “And thou shalt give the Levites unto Aaron and to his sons: they are wholly given unto him out of the children of Israel. And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest’s office: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death” (See also Numbers 8:6-26).
However, the Book of Mormon story claims that descendants of the tribe of Manasseh (Alma 10:3) were made priests.
2 Nephi 5:26 “And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did consecrate Jacob and Joseph, that they should be priests and teachers over the land of my people.”
The Old Testament teaches that the first born of the flocks were to be given automatically to the Lord. Sacrifices were to be made from their remaining animals.
Exodus 13:12 “That thou shalt set apart unto the Lord all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males shall be the Lord’s” (See also Ex. 13:2; 22:29-30; Numbers 3:13; 18:15-18; 2 Sam. 24:24).
Deuteronomy 12:6 “And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks.”
The Book of Mormon claims that the Nephites were keeping the law of Moses. However, the Nephites broke the law of Moses by using the first of the flocks for burnt offerings. These should have already been given to the Lord as tithing.
Mosiah 2:3 “And they also took of the firstlings of their flocks, that they might offer sacrifice and burnt offerings according to the law of Moses.”
The Bible states that all of King Zedekiah’s sons were killed.
Jeremiah 39:6 “Then the king of Babylon slew the sons of Zedekiah in Riblah before his eyes.”
Contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon claims that one son of King Zedekiah escaped destruction and came to the Americas.
Heleman 6:10 “the land north was called Mulek, which was after the son of Zedekiah; for the Lord did bring Mulek into the land north” (See also Heleman 8:21).
The Bible prophesied that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem.
Micah 5:2 “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”
However, the Book of Mormon said he would be born at Jerusalem.
Alma 7: 10 “And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin…”
Kiki – I have never seen such a long comment on any article or blog I have ever read. It seems you are very invested in proving the Church of Jesus Christ, and even He himself to be false. I ask a personal question …. what’s in it for you? Why do you spend so much time an energy on such a quest? Just curious.
@Kiki – Again, Wow. This post is almost rude with how long it is.
Both points about how not preaching to the gentiles was known too early in the Book of Mormon, and how the early Christian church in the Book of Mormon knew about the christian name too early defies logic. What God reveals to prophets in one area of the world, bears no restrictions on what He can reveal to anyone else. You assume that if it happened a certain way in Jerusalem, that is exactly how it happened everywhere. Should I remind you that the bible setting covers only a small portion of the population of the world during those time periods, specifically at the end. Jerusalem was a hard hearted land, so who is to say that a more humble people couldn’t have knowledge given to them earlier if God saw fit to it.
Regarding priesthood, again, what you don’t know is that during the Old Testament, the lesser or Aaronic/Levitical priesthood was passed by lineage. The priesthood after the order of Melchizedek was not restricted by lineage. Not to mention that there were High Priests like Jethroe. After the Law of Moses was fulfilled, the Aaronic priesthood was opened up to non-lineal saints. God must have made an exception for the Nephites, or maybe there were Melchizedek Priests.
Regarding the offering of the firstlings of the flock, that dates back to Adam. The nephite nation was given spiritual blessings that could not been given to the Israelites, because of the hard heartedness of that nation. There was baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, the Melchizedek priesthood, and what appears to be sacrifices more in line with the symbolism of the Savior, who was sacrificed as the firstling of the flock, without blemish, etc.
Regarding Mulek, you should know better than to take a simple declarative statement like verse 6 and change it to absolute. It never says all of the sons of Zedekiah, it just says “the sons”. There is still room of “a” son to leave without being killed.
Regarding the phrasing, being born at Jerusalem vs Bethlehem. At is defined as in or around, so since Jerusalem is only 7 miles from Bethlehem, I would say it qualifies as an at when the only place of reference for family members who never lived in Jerusalem would be Jerusalem itself. That is like someone asking where you are from and instead of saying the community of Burbank, you say LA.
Seriously, you picked the easiest doctrinal points to pick at. Thank you.
Vivi, we don’t care what anti Mormons think about us. There’s no need to insert your agenda into this topic of priesthood organization. There are anti sites for statements like yours.
@Vivi- We don’t spend our time worrying about what anti Mormons think of the restored gospel. Your comments here are as pointless as they would be in a sacrament meeting. Feel free to post them at exMormon.org eh they will be appreciated instead of ignored.
I think it’s interesting that people believe that we can “thwart God’s plans” at all—let alone by asking sincere questions about gender equality. Like: “I had a really good plan for you guys but you went and screwed it all up because of your earnest questions about sexism and now we’re all screwed!”
Best comment ever!
I cannot rest – this weighs me down so! I am a fairly strong-willed woman, I suppose you could say. I do not feel a man could inhibit me from accomplishing my goals in life. My testimony, something no one can dispute, because it is my belief and knowledge gained from trusting and following my Heavenly Father, is this….I KNOW how special I am to my Father in Heaven. I KNOW He loves and cherishes me as His daughter. I KNOW He sent me here to accomplish certain things entrusted to me. I KNOW He endowed me, as a woman, with the ability to care for and nurture others – as well as many other talents and abilities – which naturally draws us nearer to Him. Men need the Priesthood, which is ONLY used to serve and bless others, bringing them closer to God. Can our womanly advantage not be seen!? I KNOW He cherishes His daughters, and protects us, as He has our Heavenly Mother. I’m sure she had a more important job to do instead of building the earth…raising, teaching, nurturing, preparing spirits! Selfishly, and probably a little self-righteously, I feel He may just love women a bit more 😉 a little humor to lighten things up, but not to draw from the utter Divine knowledge of how important and cherished women are to our Heavenly Father. I TRUST MY FATHER AND HIS PLAN! Which certainly include sustaining those called by Him as leaders in His church. Feelings of inequality with these truths do not come from God … and if it’s not from God, we know who it’s from. I do not comprehend how one could ever have feelings of such ‘injustice’ in this, the true gospel of Christ. I do pray that those who do, can search their souls and discover where these feelings were derived. Pride, self-worth, an offense? It is so sad that eyes could be blinded, so as to lead one to forget their Divine purpose. You can feel the spirit in which comments have been sent, and know from which they come. I do pray this is received with the love and concern which is felt.
I agree totally as a woman who was born and raised in the church in the “mission field”. I have never felt put down as a woman, but rather almost put on a higher plane bc women naturally have the spirit of God and his creative powers within us, while men need to be given the Priesthood to be able to experience that. And who did Christ first appear to in the garden when he was resurrected? Not to his apostles, but to a dear friend, a woman. Who was he most concerned about as he hung on the cross? His earthly mother. Who was first given the news of his impending birth, before the shepherds, the wise men, the man who would be his earthly father- it was his earthly mother. Who did he weep with and mourn with when his friend Lazarus died- his friends Mary and Martha. To my mind, women- both mothers and not- have always held a special place in our Savior’s church. We are leaders, role models, and teachers. Every prophet has become so due to his mother’s early influence. I rejoice that I am a woman in His church in these latter days!!
Laura, Thank you! I feel the very same! As President Hinckley used to say: “It’s the manure that makes us grow!”
God has his wisdom in why He does things the way He does. I don’t understand why women would even want that responsibility to be honest. I truly wish that men could experience the miracle of having a child grow inside their bodies, and bring a baby into the world. It’s something that only women get to experience. That’s the way God intended it. No amount of petitioning is going to change that fact. So, why are women fighting for something that God never intended for them to have? It makes as much sense as trying to give men the ability to give birth. It is not part of God’s plan, and it never will be. I am happy to be a woman and to have that gift.
As a woman married to a man with the priesthood, I have all the blessings of the priesthood in my home. I don’t need to have the priesthood myself to obtain these blessings. I really don’t understand this movement at all. Think of how many other complications could happen having women and men serving together in bishoprics and presidencies and spending all kinds of time in meetings together. I just think that is another can of worms that God does not want to open. Though it may not happen often, I would not be surprised if some inappropriate feelings could develop when men and women are working together so closely and spending so much time together. I guarantee we would hear of affairs taking place. He has wisdom in the way He does things, and we just need to accept that this is His plan. If you believe in the gospel, and believe the church to be true, then you need to just accept that this is the way God intended it. Please explain to me why that is so difficult?
Becca – I totally agree with your line of thinking – I’ve been grateful too that Heavenly Father has wisdom in all things.
Let’s take this a step further…. If a woman can be in the Bishopric, a man in the RS presidency, then a woman could potentially be a Priest Quorum advisor, and a man, a Laurel advisor and a trickle down affect right to men being the Beehive and Activity Day’s leaders over a bunch of vulnerable little girls. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see the potential harm this could cause.
Not only could I not attempt to counsel a 16 year old hormonal boy, because I’ve never been one, but it would be just plain inappropriate for me to be all “buddy buddy” with them the way their Young Men’s advisors are. Why would Heavenly Father, the Prophet, or any spiritually in-tune and insightful mothers and fathers want to pose that kind of risk to their vulnerable children?
Equality would have to mean equality in the entire church, or it would mean nothing at all. How would anyone who supports OW respond to this scenario?
I think the issue here is that nothing can change unless someone speaks up about it. These women may inadvertently be subverting some work of the church; but at the same time, if these students are really willing to hear what you have to say, they will be willing to hear all sides of the story. Nothing is perfect; the church is run by people, by humans, who are inherently fallible. Anyone who truly has their heart open to a new faith should understand this. Additionally, saying that fighting for ones rights “too publicly” is the exact problem that women have been dealing with for hundreds of years. If the church doesnt want a public “airing of dirty laundry” the easiest way to counteract it is to actively listen to what these women are saying. Take them seriously by holding a serious and private counsel.
Great article. I was just saying many of these things to my husband the other day. I agree so much that having questions and getting answers is such a valuable thing to do! However it should be a pursuit that is personal with the imput of a few people you trust . In no way should something so personal be broadcasted to the world. I wish they could see the damage they are causing! You did miss a very special group of people who will suffer greatly from all of this though……. the children. How very confusing it would be to have to watch your mother ( or father) participating in all this madness.
Thanks for taking the time to write this post. I’m not part of OW but I am a feminist and do disagree on a couple points. I can understand your pain due to a friend investigating the church and now having doubts, but I think those doubts would have come up anyway (or should! people have to work through it, right?). I don’t think as LDS people we need to accuse each other about how the world sees the church (or someone could point to this well-intentioned blog post as a turn-off for other investigators). I know it would turn off some of my friends. Some of that is just a difference in taste and experience. But I’m still glad you voiced what you did. It contributes to more open dialogue. If my friends did see this post, it’s not a threat. They will run into things that bug them about the church no matter what, just like we all as church members have things that bug us, culturally, doctrinally, or whatever. We don’t need to be afraid of human foibles hampering the progress of the church. We also don’t need to be afraid of taking things to the public forum and having it revealed that members have very different views within this church. Didn’t church leadership exemplify going to the public forum with actively supporting Prop 8, for example? Diversity is a strength, not a weakness. Most of us are in this church even with unanswered questions. We don’t need to protect investigators from unanswered questions. We need to express our own and why we still believe. I think we’re all probably advancing the church and hampering it at the same time. That’s why it’s so amazing that God still helps it persevere!
I am your stereotypical Mormon woman. I am a stay at home mom with two children. I have a strong testimony and have never had issues with the priesthood or feeling like I am not equal to my husband or to any man for that matter. I just wanted to say I appreciate your reply to this article. I for one, like this blog post but I also really like your response and appreciate it. Thank you for your faith! God’s work will never be stopped.
Nicely said. The most reasonable comment I’ve seen on the subject. Thank you.
@cindygrigg
I agree with you about all of us having unanswered questions as we each journey on our individual path. We don’t have to be afraid of the answers; but a “public forum” is not the place to get them. Blogs, and the media are not a very reliable source for finding spiritual answers in complete context, but are a pretty good way to cloud and confuse, and ultimately wither seeds that have just been planted.
Discussions; yes. Plastering it across the media to further your agenda; no.
@Cindy. The issue with prejudicing investigators is valid but peripheral. Each investigator has to answer to God for how they responded to the gospel when it was offered.
Questions being bad also isn’t the issue because everyone in the church has questions. The issue is how we go about getting answers. Prop 8 is a great example of the difference and necessity of public discourse in a constitutional democracy vs voicing dissenting doctrinal views worldwide in a Kingdom where an omniscient and all powerful being as the King. Diversity of mortal opinion is pointless when they are all fallible and subjective about the gospel which we believe comes from an objective and irrefutable source. In fact mortal opinion could be attributable to what happened with the apostasy in the new testament, and why there are so many Christian churches today. To much of man’s opinion krept into the church without apostles to keep it in check.
Thank you for your post! You hit it right on the head
I’m fairly new to the church, so I don’t have as much knowledge of history and doctrine as everyone else. But I feel this entire thing is yet another attack on the family. Men and women are equal, but with different responsibilities. Meaning it’s a PARTNERSHIP. If you had all the power and responsibilities as your spouse, why would you even need them? The way the world is going and the way women are now, if they had the priesthood.. why would they even want to get married? We can have kids, we can have successful jobs, and now we have the priesthood= we don’t need men now….. sadly that’s how a lot of feminists think. Society is attacking the role of men and I feel like this is just another example.
Excellent observation. The differing roles between men and women are by divine design, requiring us to work together as a family unit to achieve a common goal. There is unequalled strength when understanding of God’s plan is prayerfully sought and followed. Men have been given the humbling responsibility of learning to honor and use the priesthood for the benefit of others. The priesthood only works when used in righteousness by one who is faithful and lives worthly. It can only be given by the laying on of hands by one who has the authority to give it to another and only under the conditions and parameters as set forth by the Lord, not the church. It cannot be demmanded, sold, or obtained outside of those parameters or it will be useless. Just like a light bulb is useless without giving it a source of power. When used in the family, both the man and woman participate equally in its blessings. When used as intended by the Lord it is a critical component to achieving true equality in a marriage relationship. A man and woman cannot become one with God without the priesthood. Neither can do it alone. I pray that those who demand this perceived equality by giving the priesthood to women, would focus their energy on gaining a testimony of its divine purpose, so they too can participate in its infinite blessings.
So your point is: it’s okay to wonder, or to question, as long as you don’t disrupt the LDS church’s very expensive PR campaign. This argument is the main reason why these questions NEED to be publicly addressed: because otherwise the church will just quietly shame those who disagree. Well now those tables have turned & I really don’t feel too bad about it.
I agree fullheartedly. Going to public media and to people who have no way to answer the questions is really going to get support, a tactic for arguing that is always highlighted as harmful rather than helpful. It’s not seeking answers so much as trying to force change. Thank you so much for your article 🙂 It was…relaxing to read.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teaches pure principles and doctrine and has a living Prophet, we receive strong teaching and answers from our leaders, twice a year in General Conference, messages in the Ensign, and other talks given by the brothers and sisters in our congregation. I am equal in everyway and have never been treated different. It took me a long time and several religions to find the truth and it is written in my heart, but I had to read, research, ponder and pray to find the truth, I was never pushed, forced or told what to do, my Father raised me anti Mormon so when the Elders came to teach me they had their hands full. Through my reaching out, the power of the Holy Ghost and the correct answers I embraced the LDS church. It has brought me peace, happiness and a desire to live his commandments and have tolerance and love for those who try to tear our teachings down. When you are truly converted, on your own through your own knocking and finding the truth there is no contention in the teachings, I am a woman and function in every aspect of the church. I am grateful for the truth and my ability thru the Holy Ghost to discern the truth from the tarnished ways of the world.
Something to consider. If someone is swayed into not joining the church because of this, do you really think God is going to keep them from eternal salvation? What about teaching after death? This argument doesn’t stand if you really believe Mormon philosophy.
I think you are right. This is really about obtaining a higher degree of spiritual understanding and resulting peace and happiness in this life. No person who sincerely seeks the gospel, but fails to find it, will be turned away. I believe the same is true for those who fall away for any number of reasons. They miss out for a time, but will be accepted once they realize their mistake and repent.
@kc. It’s not about them never accepting the gospel but trying not to put more stumbling blocks in their way. It’s always better to accept the gospel here than in the spirit world.
I’m sorry, are you saying that there’s something better about the Gospel on Earth than in heaven? What kind of personal revelation are you getting that lets you know that one is better than the other?
Mina – we have been told the earth was prepared as a proving ground for us to be tested, to see if we will be valiant, true and faithful in following the Gospel and God’s commandments. If you reject, or want to fight against the true Gospel of Jesus Christ while on this earth, and think that in Heaven if you get further proof you’ll decide to accept it then, sadly, you will have missed the mark.
There may be an opportunity to repent and accept it in heaven, but then you are counting on your posterity to accept it on earth and then do your temple work for you. Many spirits will be waiting a long time for that to happen.
@Mina- Again I don’t know how much you know about the restored gospel, but I never said that the gospel is better in one place or the other. God has revealed through modern revelation that those who lived and died without ever hearing the gospel will be taught it in the spirit world and be able to have the ordinances done for them here. They will still be judged on how they lived their lives and the truth that they did have, but the atonement will have effect for them. However, Alma teaches that this life is the time to prepare to meet God, and Abraham taught that this life is a time to prove us and see if we will do everything that God expects of us. Mortality is a time period that determines the rest of existence and there are no do overs. Living the full gospel in mortality generates an immeasurable good for the gospel than just accepting it in the spirit world. This is not my doctrine but commonly taught in the church. It is harder to be a tool in the Lord’s Kingdom if you aren’t in His Kingdom or if you are not practicing His full gospel here in mortality. I hope this clears it up for you.
@Mina- Again I don’t know how much you know about the restored gospel, but I never said that the gospel is better in one place or the other. God has revealed through modern revelation that those who lived and died without ever hearing the gospel will be taught it in the spirit world and be able to have the ordinances done for them here. They will still be judged on how they lived their lives and the truth that they did have, but the atonement will have effect for them. However, Alma teaches that this life is the time to prepare to meet God, and Abraham taught that this life is a time to prove us and see if we will do everything that God expects of us. Mortality is a time period that determines the rest of existence and there are no do overs. Living the full gospel in mortality generates an immeasurable good for the gospel than just accepting it in the spirit world. This is not my doctrine but commonly taught in the church. It is harder to be a tool in the Lord’s Kingdom if you aren’t in His Kingdom or if you are not practicing His full gospel here in mortality. I hope this clears it up for you
I find it a little presumptuous of you to assume that the outcry was not preceded by much prayer, soul-searching, and private discussion.
I also find it a bit disturbing that you seem to care more about appearances than about accountability. You’re in favour of questions, but only if they’re kept away from the public. It’s exactly this sort of attitude that justifies covering for child molesters because it’s a bad representation – not that this is precisely equivalent, but it’s step down the same road.
Maybe I’m misreading you, but it certainly sounds like you would rather have injustice continue than take the risks involved in public self examination. Frankly, the fact that the LDS church might be antifeminist concerns me less than the LDS church being afraid to talk publicly about equality within the church. Even if I take your word for it that women are equal in the LDS church, the fact that you think you need to have this conversation behind closed doors is a big red flag.
I feel it’s presumptuous for Kate Kelly to try and speak for the entire church, when that is what we have a prophet for.
I find it disturbing that you talk about the importance of accountability, when that is what is happening to Kate Kelly now, (She’s being held accountable for her actions) and you are unhappy with that fact.
I’m in favor of questions, even if they are made publicly in faith. That is NOT what is happening with OW, and to claim it is, is completely dishonest.
There is no injustice. We aren’t afraid to talk about equality. That’s not the problem.
It’s hard to explain it to people whon don’t want to understand.
You say there’s no injustice, but clearly some people think there is, and I have no reason to believe you over them. less, actually, since they’re taking a bigger risk by speaking up than you are by trying to shut them down.
You say you aren’t afraid to talk about equality, but I read that whole article, and well, maybe you’re not afraid to talk about it but it sounds like Ms. Lemmons is.
See, this is what I mean about accountability. Ms. Kelly is, as you point out, being held accountable for her actions, and contrary to your assumptions, I have no issue with that. And because the conversation is being held in public, the church also gets held accountable. See how this way everyone has to take responsibility for their words, not just the people who disagree with you?
For example, this way when Ms. Lemmons says that women should just ask male authority figures to tell them whether the LDS is sexist, she gets called out on it. And when you act as if saying “there is no injustice” somehow makes it true, you get called out on it. At this point, you and Ms Lemmons have done a lot more damage to my view of the LDS church than Ms. Kelly has. There are two ways to deal with that: you could try and stick the whole issue back under wraps where you can say problematic things to your hearts’ contents, or you could get in the habit of considering what you say a little more carefully. Guess which one will constitute accountability?
I enjoyed your article, and I think your perspective is an accurate one. Our Father in Heaven has given us the gift of agency, and the ability to choose for ourselves. He has given us the tools and right to search out for ourselves what is right and what is true. The prophet Joseph Smith said that any revelation given to a prophet can be given to anyone, so long as they are willing to first seek diligently, and then abide by the answer. Though I hate to see it happen, it is not that surprising that it is within our own membership that a great stumbling block has risen up. Was that not what happened over and over in the Book of Mormon ( Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah, The King-men during Captian Moroni’s time, just to name a few examples) However I agree with Elder Holland, the final score board is already set. In the end God’s purposes will come forth. What matters is where we stood and what we did to uphold, keep and defend God’s truth and his plan. Thank you again for your well put together thoughts.
I look at these post and all I see is mostly people that Aren’t even Mormon saying that we are wrong and our gospel is a lie, truth is you don’t have to look far for the answer to this question, the Family A Proclamation to the world states that gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. I don’t know the reason that Heavenly Father gave the priesthood too men and the ability to have children to women, what I do know is men are different then women and women are different then men I invite anyone that has questions on this topic to read the Family a Proclamation to the world, it was given many years ago by president Hinckly and I think it was meant for this day and age several years later that it was meant to pertain to our lives. I can think of 2 topics that it puts to rest, #1 being the gay and lesbian movement that marriage between a man and a women is essential to the plan of god, and #2 being this mater with women wanting the priesthood which I talked about earlier in my post.I hope that his enlightens some people on Mormons beliefs. My name is Alexander Ricks and i am 16 and I AM A HAPPY MORMON.
Good for you Alexander! Glad to see strength in our youth!
First off, hi, I’m Christi and I’m also 16. I don’t have a religion right now, but up to the age of twelve I went to the LDS church. I’ve studied many religions to try to find the one for me, yet I don’t really like coming back to a topic you mentioned. 1. Gay equality. Do you think God, creator of all man, did not make them that way for a purpose? We are currently going to overpopulate the world. You probably say no, but years from now, that could be the problem. God planned everything. We have free will, but God is the top decision maker. 2. I am a girl, and a feminist. We are all equal. We are all God’s children, so why does God only give the power to men? He gives no “power” to the woman. He wants her to sit at home and tend the children. As a girl who wants to be a psychiatrist, that really dampers my plans. If I were to join any church, I’d like to be treated with just as much respect and power as the men. The Mormon church also is really not very nice to the guys either. Girls get girl’s camp. Guys get…oh, wait, you have to be a Scout to really have a camp. We never truly look deeply at our age, but I’m trying. I didn’t get baptized for one reason: How is an 8-year-old supposed to choose a religion? My dad quizzed me to see if I knew anything about the church, and I didn’t. If a church can give that big of a choice to an 8-year-old, how much of it is the parents choice. I’d rather wait until I’m 18 to choose, or older. There are many more things about why I’m not a member, but I’ve strayed from the topic, so I’ll end it here. Have a nice day! (:
I don’t see any reason why a 16 yr old girl can’t dream of becoming a psychiayrist and actually become one.I am a psychologist and my sister is a lawyer. There are many LDS women who are well educated and have children. And as any working mom will tell you, LDS or not, it is very, very hard to balance work and family. If I didn’t have my Heavenly Father’s support I would have never made it through those long days and all-nighters when I was in grad school. But He NEVER left my side and I never once felt him tell me that I should give up. Women are just as precious to Him as any man and yes, he does care about our goals and dreams. All we have to do is TRUST Him.
I think all this is so silly. I think Heavenly Father sits up there and smiles. See…he sees in circles, not in linear gauges of existence. Take the “Book of Mormon” out of the conversation (For you Mormon haters) and use just the bible. We know this is all part of the revelations of the last days. We waste so much time and energy on this stuff. My fellow members it is all a distraction from Satan to keep us from moving in the direction that the Lord would have us move. Let those who protest our church protest it and let the leaders deal with it. Those who are turned away…well the Lord always has a back up plan, he will not lose his children…they will find their way. Cause that is how awesome our God is. We as members of the LDS church need to focus on what unites us with the world…love one another…and not jump on the bandwagon of reverse hatred. Where is our faith? Again I say, let the leaders take care of these issues, the Lord has their backs. I have no problem being a member of a church that so many hate. Look how many hated the Lord. It is a pattern that has existed from the beginning. We will lose some of the elect in the process. The Savior lost Judas, and almost Peter. It is the plight of truth. We don’t need to be on the defensive. We just need to love. The Lord only braided his rope once. The rest of the time he just loved. We get too worked up about Satan’s dirty work, which is the actual result that he is looking for. So I suggest you just let all this roll off your back and serve the unique purpose that is ours…we all have one. Don’t let all this keep us from being engaged in God’s plan.
Well said! Thank you! 🙂
I really appreciate your post on this topic. I have read some things regarding what occurred, but did not realize just how intensely it has impacted so many people.
I find that as a Mom of 5 young children, that I’m too busy to worry about “equal rights.” I have children who need tears wipes, hugs given, advice on dealing with their teenage years, and on the list goes. I am a faithful temple attender and know from that weekly experience that indeed I am endowed with the blessings of the priesthood. I feel those blessings come daily as I receive comfort, revelation, and direction from God. I am not held back by some erroneous view that this a “mans church.” It is not. I think men and women complement each other with their unique strengths, and we need to focus more on that!
The world is massive, and my family needs me to love them, and help them meet their needs. I have service to give not only to my family but to those outside my home. There is service to give to the heart broken, and down trodden, and sick and, in my opinion, the service I give is just as valued to Heavenly Father, as that which a bishop gives in his hours of counseling. (Though I assure you I do not negate those immense efforts. Bishop, Stake Presidents, and such other priesthood leaders (living up to their callings) have a far heavier burden to carry than I, because they have hundreds of individuals and families calling upon them day and night in their needs and worries.) I am just saying that Heavenly Father loves my offerings of righteousness, and I am not viewed any less by Him, or my family because I can’t bless the sacrament, or set apart a ward member for a calling.
I think it’s interesting, because the Catholic church has some strict policies on men and women. But, because it’s “The Mormons” people try to find fault.
Here’s a quote I ran across at http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-role-of-women-in-the-catholic-church.html
———
“Many women play active roles in the Catholic Church, but few of them have sanctioned titles. Even becoming a nun doesn’t get you the boon of the sacrament of Holy Orders — only men can be ordained.
The reason women can’t be priests goes to the establishment of the sacrament of Holy Orders. Because Christ established the sacrament, no pope, council, or bishop can change it. Eastern Orthodox Catholics don’t ordain women for the very same reason. It has nothing to do with who’s more worthy or suitable for Holy Orders in the same way that the ban on non-Catholics receiving Holy Communion has nothing to do with any moral or spiritual judgment on the persons involved. It has to do with Sacred Tradition, which is considered as divinely inspired as Sacred Scripture.”
———
I won’t go into great details about this, but just as it says above, regarding views of that Catholic quote, some things aren’t changed—unless it’s changed by God himself, or through divine revelation. I leave those matters to God, because my testimony is based on a belief that this is His church, and that His vision is so much greater!
Let’s not obsess about every little detail that we can’t understand here and now. We have so many options open to us in society. Those options are endless and there is so much to be thankful for, and so much good to be done. Stop worrying about all the little things you can’t control.
Someday all things will be brought to our understanding. Be grateful for whatever gender you are, and that you live in such a land of abundant freedom. Look to Heavenly Father with humility, and allow him to author many wonderful stories for your life! The stories you author of your life have the potential to be an embarrassment in your family history, or a beautiful legacy to your memory. You choose! You get a start over every day of your life. Priesthood or not, be the BEST YOU within your control!
(Sorry, it’s long, but thanks for letting me write it. Keep up the great blog! 🙂
Christine
I feel really bad for the person who wrote this article & some of the comments or such programmed answers u here from Mormons who really haven’t research there own religion but will lie without realize there lying because they think there standing up for truth so subconsciously they think it’s okay. But studying religions daily the Mormon religion was one of the easiest to see through. Someone ask me to read a Book of Mormon & I did. It’s not a life manual like they claim it’s a story written in 15 century English when they didn’t talk like that in the 1800s. It has word for word identical verses from the orginal print of the King James translation of the bible even with the copied errors that were in that transaltion, not just one or two, but about 1/5 of it. Not to mention all the other books like the book of Napoleon it was copied from that were found out with the help of google books. & the book of Napoleon was a book read by JS as a teenager in school. These aren’t Un factual assumptions this is truth. If u don’t believe me don’t debate with me go get ur self a copie of the book of Napoleon & an orginal BOM print & a King James orgnial transaltion & read them side by side. If ur still Mormon do ur self a favor & smack ur self in the head & remember u don’t care about logic or truth u just want to not have been wrong all your life & are scared of truth. U will die out if u keep that attitude this world is a different place now… Ya GODs religion only has 5 – million members pha!!
I’m sorry, I find it difficult to take someone who is *trying* to throw their knowledge around, seriously, when they can’t even put together a coherent sentence, or even bother trying to spell correctly.
There are too many mistakes to blame auto correct.
@ Jones. JS as you call him did not read that book as a “teenager in school” because he only had a 3rd grade education. He wasn’t even in school when he was a teenager. There is NO WAY a farm boy from upstate New York in the 1800’s could have had access to a book like that anyway. The internet did NOT exist, cars did not exist either. Many of the towns did not have libraries.
Agreed! You know your info!
OK, so I’m not a member of OW, but I am a Mormon feminist and while I appreciate your opinion I respectfully disagree for the following reasons.
1. You depict Jesus of someone who avoided making waves or publicly doing or saying anything that could challenge the faith of another. This is pretty much the opposite of how I see him. He was constantly challenging the Church’s traditions and mode of operation, and in a very public way. The most extreme example would be driving the money changers out of the temple with a whip. And he certainly wasn’t afraid to challenge the Church’s treatment of women. He was about as radical as you can get.
2. I find the idea that members need to suffer privately rather than openly shed light on tough subjects to be rather unsettling. For one thing I have been that woman who feels like I need to constantly bite me tongue, afraid to speak up for what I really believe for fear of rocking the boat. It’s extremely soul-killing, especially for us Mormons who have been taught since childhood the importance of integrity and standing up for our beliefs. I imagine that most (if not all) Mormon feminists have privately prayed and searched for answers as well as discussed matters with church leaders, and many of them feel that it is the Lord that is prompting them to speak up.
3. To me it seems rather ingenuous to deliberately cover up truths about the Church that are less than flattering in order to attract investigators. The truth is that many Mormon women feel perfectly content with their role in the Church and the family, but not all do. I don’t think this is something we should try to hide. I also know that the press on OW has caused some people to view the Church in a more positive light. I know of a few people who believed that Mormon women were all passive, meek, and submissive. Seeing examples of strong Mormon women who were not afraid to challenge the status quo makes them believe that Mormons are a more diverse and complex population than they assumed.
4. There is a precedent in the church for revelation coming as the result of members bringing issues to the attention of church leaders. We are all aware that the Word of Wisdom came as a result of Emma taking her concerns to Joseph. The revelation about ordaining black men to the Priesthood came immediately after several public campaigns and public demonstrations (and yes, it had also garnered the attention of the press).
5. If you have a testimony of the Gospel then you should have faith that these women will not thwart God or his plan.
@Angela- 1. I agree that Jesus challenged the spiritual notions of those around him, but there were no church leaders at the time… the prophets and apostles were just learning to be leaders and the sanhedrin and Romans were all apostate. Jesus was teaching from scratch.
2. No one is asking anyone to be silent, but there is a time and a place. Sacrament meeting or Sunday School are probably bad times to ask these questions. Having these questions, talking about them, discussing them online are all acceptable. The problem is receiving your own revelation on topics where official revelation hasn’t been explained or given and teaching it like it has been revealed. Even worse is seeking supporters for your revelation and demonstrating for it.
3. We aren’t trying to trick members into joining, but that doesn’t mean that all gospel knowledge is as easy to understand as faith in Jesus Christ. I wouldn’t teach a new investigator about heavenly mother and becoming God’s in their own world right away. I also wouldn’t talk about the mountain Meadow massacre, dna and the bom, or any other ex Mormon.org topics again not to hide anything, but to avoid planting weeds to choke it the message.
4. I highly disagree with the idea that revelation comes through members or that God is waiting for your issues to bring things up. Emma and the WoW was initiated over Emma’s concern of tobacco and hygiene, but the Lord chose to elaborate on it as a general health law. About the blacks and the priesthood, I was very young but have never heard of protests or demonstrations over it and would love any references. In contrary to your assertion, all of the scriptural examples seem to show that either revelation comes outside of church authority when authority has fallen into apostasy, like Abinadi, or when misled or wicked members are trying to change the gospel to suit their needs, like Amalekiah or Hiram Page. This is how the great apostasy happened.
This is an honest inquiry. There are some things I have been wondering about that has me a little confused. I have been trying to understand the viewpoint of Ordain Women but the process they have been going through seems inconsistent. This issue has been going on for over a year and a half that I am aware of. They have said they are only asking a question but in my mind, hasn’t that questioned been answered? After a year and a half and with all the attention they have sought, no one can claim to not be aware of the situation and most definitely not the prophet. So if they say they believe in the prophet as the mouth piece of God, they believe he is a loving person, and they are willing to accept his answer, then why is this still going on? There has been requests for no protesting, the church has explained why they are not offered seats in Priesthood session, there have been numerous statements made by church officials, and not to mention a very clear conference talk. Isn’t that an answer? I am not sarcastic when I say I really am confused about what Ordain Women is looking for. It’s ambiguous to me. When do they say, “we are content?” When they have a personal luncheon with President Monson? Would they take any answer if it was from him? Or only one answer? Do they want a press release with the words: ” I have prayed about it and this is the answer……?” Its just not clear to me what their true purpose is. I also think it is interesting that there is a huge air of scandal about disciplinary councils. This has been going on for a LONG time. There has been LOTS of discussion. They aren’t facing disciplinary councils because they “asked a question” they are facing it because they have refused the answer and are exciting anger, distress, division, and outright opposition to the church. They are being asked to a disciplinary council because of their methods. Not the question. Methods which have been kindly addressed again and again. How can they be surprised that it’s come t o this? It also bothers me that it is being portrayed as them being shoved out of the church and ripped from their eternal families. That’s not what disciplinary councils are about. They are about reestablishing harmony in the individual’s relationship with God and within the congregation. The disciplinary council is about bringing the person to the point where they can come back into COMPLETE and FULL fellowship. Then there are those who will say that the church wants Ordain Women to submit, to walk the line. I would say that is true but not in the light some would paint it in. Doesn’t the very fact that a group of people is considered an “organization” mean there are expectations, rules, laws, or something the members are expected to align themselves with? If not, is it not at all “organized?” We have so many places where we follow this rule in smaller situations. You wouldn’t try to play basketball by hockey rules. You understand that when you join the “marching band” that it involves marching. Why wouldn’t something as big a religion expect you to “submit” to their organization? The point is that you get a choice as to whether or not that is the organization you want to be apart of. In some of these organizations you have a committees and elected officials where you can change the laws and rules but if you believe an organization to be run by God then you forgo the democracy part. You say you “submit” yourself to HIS will. I think it is obvious that the answer is “NO.” Now What?
Great insight! I especially loved this line: “They aren’t facing disciplinary councils because they “asked a question” they are facing it because they have refused the answer and are exciting anger, distress, division, and outright opposition to the church. ” I wish you could highlight, bold, underline, and caps it.
Amen, the church is a Kingdom not a democracy. It is run by common consent not voting, discussions, or the opinions of the masses. We can’t demand any type of response from the King or His representatives, especially considering that our King is a perfect, omniscient being. We only control our affiliation to the Kingdom. The idea of public discourse is only relevant within man made organizations where all opinions are equally flawed and diversity creates depth. The Kingdom on earth has never been governed by public discourse, because what is any mortal opinion going to add to God’s?
My big issue now is comparing the impact of OW’s public airing of their doctrinal misgivings, to how anti Mormons air their issues with our doctrine. AM’s take to blogs, cite their sources, usually include case examples from early church history, twist quotes from prophets, and put it out publicly to gain support and dissuade investigators from looking deeper. OW blog, contact news outlets, demonstrate in front of conference, cite early church leaders, twist the words of prophets to suit their needs, completely misinterpret conference addresses designed to clear up their doctrinal issues (like from E Oaks), and use the public exposure to try to force church leadership to make changes or include them in church administrative discussions. The two organizations act too similarly for my comfort.
Lastly, has anyone actually read what is on the OW site? Where does it say they have questions for the leaders? It days that they have pastured about equality, and have their own personal convictions about equality, and are faithfully looking for change. That is not a question. That is purported revelation and an agenda. Neither came thru the Lord’s established leaders.
Thank you for being courageous enough to say this. I love that the current situation is providing an opportunity for faithful members to proclaim truth. Because in the end, all that really matters is that we stand with the Lord and his prophets AND that we are brave enough to say so. I shared this on Facebook. Thank you for providing me a way to stand and be brave. God bless you. ❤
Separate, but equal. I feel like I’ve heard that somewhere…
this article is nonsense. did you really just suggest that they were crossing the line by publicly protesting??? this is the kinda stupidity that keeps mormonism alive. its called free speech and if mormons cant hack it then move to china. sorry mormons but investigators have a right to know what goes on in the church even the bad things. you go as far as to.suggest that we.hide all our doubts from non members so as to cast the illusion that being a member will mean no more doubting or questioning or wondering and that my misguided mormon friend is nothing more then an out right lie. mormons are liars brainwashed to lie without even conciously realizing it. you have been raised into a lie and its time to put an end to it. i call bullshit. feel free to email me for the truth.
Bleh. I hate ignorance. I have no patience for it. I read a few of the comments and that’s enough. It’s no use arguing with people who are set in their close-minded views of the church so I won’t even begin. It is true, the way to know the truth about anything and get answers to anything is to ask the Lord, in prayer. If the answer is ‘no’ it is then your responsibility to deal with it.
I wouldn’t want the Priesthood, not only because things like being bishop is a nightmare of a calling, but also because what good would guys be then if women had it all and could do it all? They’d be useless, worthless and shunted to the side, lol.
The purpose for us having different roles is that we can work TOGETHER to build the church. So that we can both have important roles.
Men have no more power than us. You may even argue that they have less. They aren’t welcome to any more faith or blessings than we are.
We work TOGETHER to make this church work, just like we work TOGETHER to procreate, or should we become like some creatures and be able to do that all on our own, too?
If any guy in the church ever had an air about him that he was superior in any way I’d put him in his place . . . and so would God.
Some people feel so sorry for themselves and let things make them leave the church. Everyone has their things that they have to deal with. I am a VERY introverted person and it is so hard for me to do my callings in the church and do visiting teaching, which are all things that take me out of my comfort zone, big time. I’ve gone through dark times dealing with whether or not I wanted to accept them, stick with them, but I have chosen to do what I’m asked, and I am already reaping the benefits of doing what I know Heavenly Father knows is hard for me.
You just have to be willing to listen and to do what you’re asked, and you get understanding and blessings.
These people who are making a stink about not being able to hold the Priesthood––whatever. And any who are driven away from the church because of it are weak. There will always be those who revile against the church, within and without, but I certainly don’t have to listen to them. It’s their loss, their salvation.
Apostasy at it’s best and good for the LDS Church for not allowing it to happen. Do they not see they are only in the hands of Satan doing his work instead of God’s work? the entire thing is sad to hear about-
Thank you for writing this!
Women have just as much power in the priesthood as men do God does give you power he gives everyone who has even faith as tiny as a mustard seed power to move mountains.
being ordained in the priesthood to any office within it is just like being given a calling as a sister. you have your responsibilities and we have ours it is a different responsibility because God gave Women a natural empathy towards others and you know instinctively how to serve someone. Us Men on the other hand have been raised generation after generation to subdue our feelings and not show emotion to the world becoming an emotional brick. The Gift to administer blessings to the sick and perform other priesthood ordinances given to us men is there to help us understand those whom we serve and better to empathize with them.
As for the gay and lesbian issues I love them all the same I believe it is a choice and sometimes that choice is influenced by past sexual trauma or other traumatic occurrences within their personal lives that makes them feel more comfortable with the same sex rather than the opposite sex.
In my talk pasted down below is what I wholeheartedly believe.
The Power Of the Priesthood.
April 10, 2014 at 1:02pm
Hi for those of you who don’t know me I am Lary winkfield and I have been asked to speak on the Priesthood today. The word priesthood has two meanings. First, priesthood is the power and authority of God. It has always existed and will continue to exist without end
Second, in mortality, priesthood is the power and authority that God gives to man to act in all things necessary for the salvation of God’s children. The blessings of the priesthood are available to all who receive the gospel. (both Men and Women)
There is no question that the power of the priesthood exceeds our understanding. The Prophet Joseph taught of this great power “that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;
“To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; … and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world” (JST, Gen. 14:30–31).
We sometimes overly associate the power of the priesthood with men in the Church. The priesthood is the power and authority of God given for the salvation and blessing of all—men, women, and children.
A man may open the drapes so the warm sunlight comes into the room, but the man does not own the sun or the light or the warmth it brings. The blessings of the priesthood are infinitely greater than the one who is asked to administer the gift.
In the book
Daughters in my Kingdom
the history and work of the relief society
it says
“Each of us can be directed and blessed in our eternal progression by receiving these blessings. The ordinances, covenants, sealings, and the gift of the Holy Ghost are essential for exaltation. There are a host of individual priesthood blessings as well. Priesthood blessings give us direction; they lift our sights; they encourage and inspire us; they prompt our commitment. We can all be partakers of these spiritual blessings.”4
Sister Sheri L. Dew, who served as a counselor in the general Relief Society presidency, echoed these teachings: “Sisters, some will try to persuade you that because you are not ordained to the priesthood, you have been shortchanged. They are simply wrong, and they do not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. The blessings of the priesthood are available to every righteous man and woman. We may all receive the Holy Ghost, obtain personal revelation, and be endowed in the temple, from which we emerge ‘armed’ with power. The power of the priesthood heals, protects, and inoculates all of the righteous against the powers of darkness. Most significantly, the fulness of the priesthood contained in the highest ordinances of the house of the Lord can be received only by a man and woman together.”5
In another part of this chapter there is the recount of Amanda Barns smith.
In late October 1838, Amanda and her husband, Warren, with their children and other members of the Church, were on the way to Far West, Missouri. There was an attack, killing 17 men and boys and wounding 15. Amanda, had hidden during the attack, she returned to find Warren and their son Sardius among the dead. Another son, Alma, was severely wounded. His hip had been blown off by a gun blast. Amanda later told of the personal revelation she received so her son could be healed:
“I [was] there, all that long, dreadful night, with my dead and my wounded, and none but God as our physician and help.“Oh my Heavenly Father, I cried, what shall I do? Thou seest my poor wounded boy and knowest my inexperience. Oh Heavenly Father direct me what to do! Amanda was directed to make a lye, or washing solution, from the ashes of their fire to clean the wound. Then she was directed to make a poultice out of cloth and slippery elm to fill the wound. The next day she found some balsam and poured it into the wound to soothe Alma’s pain.“‘Alma, my child,’ she said, ‘you believe that the Lord made your hip?’“‘Yes, mother.’“‘Well, the Lord can make something there in the place of your hip, don’t you believe he can, Alma?’“‘Do you think that the Lord can, mother?’ inquired the child, in his simplicity.“‘Yes, my son,’ she replied, ‘he has shown it all to me in a vision.’ “Then she laid him comfortably on his face, and said: ‘Now you lay like that, and don’t move, and the Lord will make you another hip.’ “So Alma laid on his face for five weeks, until he was entirely recovered—a flexible gristle having grown in place of the missing joint and socket, … a marvel to physicians.
” Through the spiritual gift of revelation, the Lord taught Sister Smith how to care for her son. She, like countless others, receive “joy and strength” and “fresh revelation of the Spirit”11 because of their faithfulness.
It continues on in this chapter to bring to light more of the priesthood blessings that are received with in the temple
Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said: “The ultimate and highest expression of womanhood and manhood is in the new and everlasting covenant of marriage between a man and a woman. Only this relationship culminates in exaltation. As the Apostle Paul taught, ‘Neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.’”22 The sealing ordinance binds husband and wife to each other, to their children, and to their Father in Heaven. “Thus,” continued Elder Oaks, “the common objective … in our priesthood quorums and … in our Relief Societies is to bring men and women together in the sacred marriage and family relationships that lead toward eternal life, ‘the greatest of all the gifts of God.’”23
When a husband and wife are blessed with the opportunity to be parents, they share a solemn responsibility to help their children understand and receive priesthood ordinances and covenants.24 Our first parents, Adam and Eve, set an example of an interdependent and unified relationship when they taught their children. Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught:
“It was not Adam alone, who was involved in these things. …
“Eve was an active participant. She heard all that Adam said. She spoke of ‘our transgression,’ of ‘the joy of our redemption,’ of the ‘seed’ they should have together, and of the ‘eternal life’ which could not come to either of them alone, but which is always reserved for a man and a woman together.
Many Latter-day Saints have never been married. Others are single because of unforeseen circumstances. Like all members of the Church, these members will be blessed as they remain faithful to their covenants and do all they can to strive for the ideal of living in an eternal family. They can enjoy the blessings, strength, and influence of the priesthood in their lives and homes through the ordinances they have received and the covenants they keep.
I urge you to read the materials the church has produced for both the sisters and the brothers so as to better understand and support each other in your callings and priesthood duties.
In the book Believing Christ Stephen E. Robinson shares an experience he had with his daughter.
She had asked him for a bicycle because she was the only one on the block without one. Not having the money at that time, he told her that if she saved her all her pennies she would soon have the money for a bike. A few weeks go by and he sees her saving, she has saved and done extra chores around the house to make more. He did not lie to her eventually she would have the funds to buy a bike but by then she would most likely want a car. So he takes her to the store and they find a bike she absolutely falls in love with. She jumps up on it and is so happy this is the bike she wants. Looking at the price tag her smile falls away and she starts to cry. Oh daddy she exclaimed I will never have enough to buy a bike. The bike was over 100$. her father then says well how much do you have? She tells him she only has 61 cents. He then says well lets make another arrangement you give me a hug and a kiss and all you do have and the bike is yours. Not being a stupid child she accepted the offer and he drove slowly home while she rode her new bike on the side walk.
The price for us to reach the kingdom of heaven and live with our heavenly father again, is perfect performance, yet none of us can be perfect by our self’s no matter how hard we try in this world we are all subject to our fallen natures. And when we realize this some of us despair. At this point we can fully appreciate the atonement of Jesus Christ.
The savior steps in and asks us how much do we have and how much can fairly be expected of us in this life. He then asks us for exactly that much and a hug and a kiss meaning we need to make it a personal relationship and the kingdom is ours. Perfection is still our ultimate goal but until we can obtain it ourselves we can use his. We do everything we can do and he will do everything else we can’t and between the two of us we have it all covered and are one hundred % justified
I testify unto you my brothers and sisters of the truth of these words, I would like to tell you a bit more about myself and my personal experience of this.
In my youth I let the world influence me into inactivity and an eventual fall away from the teachings of the Gospel. Because of the things I let into my life I had lost something precious to me. I knew not what it was that I had lost or what it was that I was seeking throughout the days of my lowly existence. I felt much as the prodigal son did, I lived a life on the run from what I had done and did not wish to face, for more than 14 years, I lived a half life searching in places and from people and things that I thought would fill the gap within me heart. Yet all I tried to fill it with left it imminently more empty than it had previously been. In the year 2011 there was an event in my life that awakened me to my struggles and what I had been seeking. I realized that I had been seeking what I had been running from. The love of my heavenly father, the forgiveness I desperately sought after for my sins and transgressions. In the end of that year I fell upon my knees and cried unto my Redeemer for help.
For the last few years I have struggled with the things I have done, not only for the forgiveness of them from my heavenly father but for the forgiveness of those I have hurt and for my own forgiveness. Throughout all my life my Mother, Father and siblings have never given up praying for me, never given up hope in me being as the lord sees me and wants me to be. They have exercised their faith and their priesthood power, authority and gifts to help guide me back to my heavenly father. And without them as well as all the help love and patients that all of you my sisters and brothers have given and shown me. I would have not seen within myself the power of my own will and testimony to overcome the trials in my life to learn from them to grow from them to forgive myself, others and to aspire to be the man that God wants me to be. To progress in the Priesthood and develop the talents that have been given unto me for the benefit of my self and others. I testify to you that the Power and authority of the Priesthood and all the gifts therein are given unto all of us who keep the covenants that we have made with our heavenly father and Jesus Christ. I also testify unto you of the infinite power of the atonement to bring you back from what you may consider the brink of falling into apostasy.
in this is the ultimate representation of the power and scope of the priesthood. The infinite Atonement of Jesus Christ.
I really loved this.
The devil using discontent, anger, secrete combinations, pride, and many forms of deception. If you truly have the holy ghost as your guide , the answers will come in a peaceful calm feeing that you know comes from God. If you get feeling of hate, envy, mistrust, confusion then the devil has your ear. God gave each of us a body, which Satan does not have , and he gave us free agency to chose who we will follow. Satan can not have a body but he can influence those who allow it so God gave us a prophet to pass his words to us in these last days.
“Chose you this day who you will serve, but Me and my house will serve the Lord”
Larry June 17th 2014
Man is that he might have joy. Women too. All our spiritual gifts of every kind are given to us that we might serve others. All who serve in the temple serve through the power of the priesthood, to bring joy to others. The spiritual blessing received through serving is joy that fills your heart, and sometimes a glimpse of the power of God.
If we shouted for joy at the opportunity to choose and follow God’s plan, didn’t we already accept the details of that plan with a complete understanding of God’s love and hopes for us? If I’ve forgotten some of that plan, it will be a great day when I pass through the veil and remember what I already learned. I know I trusted in that plan then, and I still do. I also feel that I can trust the decision I made then, and all that has transpired based on that decision. Faith in the plan gives me strength and patience.
Thank you for this post. It is beautifully written and what people need to hear! Keep it coming!
All I’d like to say here is that the Church is true. And yet some of the people fall short and do not relay the Gospel correctly or judge where it is not their place. This whole thing disheartens me. Women are just as important as men and in certain cases where they are belittled it is tragic but does not necessarily reflect on the direct teachings of Jesus Christ.
Interesting that you feel no one should speak badly about the church or it’s leadership for fear of besmirching the churches image. That is exactly what the leaders of the Catholic church said to parents of sexually assaulted children. It is your blog post here that my kids linked to pedophile priests, I’m glad they can see the problem with the “yes man” in varied situations. All my girls were not so concerned about the fact that women can’t be LDS priests but they were furious that women should just be quiet and not question the leadership. Thanks for highlighting another reason for my kids to avoid religion, and really it is so much more effective coming from a “believer”.
I find it extremely disconcerting that people do not understand the nature of our spirits. The fact that we are gendered not only physically but spiritually simply answers any and all questions surrounding the topic of ordaining women to the priesthood. For one, it would be invalid because as much as one may carry forth with the physical process, The Lord would not grant such as goes against the ordained roles both physically and spiritually. I can wish that I could carry a child within me and give birth and experience that wondrous mother-child bond. I can wish it, and get mad about it all I like and even petition the Lord to change me into a woman. I don’t think it’s going to happen for real, even as much as I may contort my flesh. The spirit is still the same. Should I feel unequal and cheated because the Lord didn’t bestow this gift upon me as a male? Change your paradigm and understand that you are who you are, physically and spiritually. And if you are physically “special” then clarity will come to you in time or in eternity. If you want the priesthood so bad, are you saying that you want to be male? That is the only thing that makes sense to me in the argument is that these females want to be changed into males, because surely they understand our spiritual gender. Or maybe that is the problem in the first place. Maybe they do not understand fully and are making requests with ill-regard to the consequences of such actions. Lucifer must be loving this.
Mike, polygamy was here to stay and there was a time that the color of ones skin stopped one from holding the Priesthood. Why is it so hard to believe that women might get a chance to hold the priesthood one day?
“The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.”
― Joseph Smith Jr.
My mother was a single mother with 3 kids. It was terrifying to me that in our Primary and Sunday School classes that my mother would not attain the celestial kingdom because she wasn’t married in the temple and we wouldn’t be sealed to her. Growing up in the 70s and also being taught that the blacks would never have the priesthood . it was very confusing when they did. I was very happy that they did. I have always felt that women are second place in the Church mainly because of polygamy and how men can marry in the temple more than one wife. I’ve never believed this to be true. I believe that our Heavenly Father values us and loves us as His daughters and would want us to live with our celestial partner in monogamy here and in Heaven. We are taught to be chaste and faithful with each other on Earth so why not in Heaven? My grandmother was a product of polygamy and her mothers life was a living hell when her spouse died. I have prayed about polygamy and Heavenly Father answers with reassurance and love. I think things will change in this church in the future.
this whole thing about women wanting to have the priesthood is crazy, the way I see it is in a sense women do have the priesthood through Fathers, husbands, worthy priesthood holders etc. If GOD wanted women to literally have the priesthood he would have made it that way, having the priesthood is a lot of responsibility: being worthy and staying worthy and HONORING the Priesthood. and honoring how GOD! their is nothing wrong with having questions, I think when it comes to the question whether women should have the priesthood, they should pray to god and ask him! he will answer prayers and when you do get in answer listen to what the answer is, sometimes you may get the answer you don’t want to hear but god knows better than us, he wants to guide us back to him in heaven. and sometimes we do get the answer that we wanted or need to hear. I pray that god will soften these women’s heart on this issue, and that they will feel his love. also for the ones that are learning about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints that they will know the truth and feel his love. I know that “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true with out a doubt, I may not understand everything but that is why we learn and study and pray to heavenly father so we have a better understanding of his church. I know that we need to follow the prophets counsel because it comes from God. I admit I am not perfect. but I do know that it is coming from god!
I am spiritual in my own way I do what’s right in my hart I was born with integrity honor and ethics. I didn’t have to get taught these things I have no need to go to church to experience the love of God or listen to someone read the bible as how they interpret the bible. All around me I am reminded that there is a creator. I have lived in many place all over the world in my life and never once until living in Utah have I felt so different to the point I have become anti social. I used to point these things out to friends and they would tell me they didn’t feel this way at all now friends that have left the LDS church and are on the same side of the fence as me have said I now understand what you meant. If Utah is what Christianity is all about I want nothing to do with it. I have never in my inter life been pushed so far away from Christianity as I have here. Happy you all have your faith but get back to the basics love one another. I have seen family’s shunt their own because they no longer go to church why on earth would you do that you think they will return to their faith after been treated like that get back to the basics. I have often wondered if its sin all week and ask for forgiveness on Sundays in Utah. Love one another for who they are hire people because they can do the job not because of what church they go to let children play with one another don’t hold it against a child because their family is not LDS.
http://www.dailydot.com/entertainment/south-park-book-of-mormon-mashup/
Here is a great read: “No Man Knows My History.” Enjoy and learn.
I felt really sad whenever I heard those “BAD COMMENTS” of others. I wonder how they will feel if their church is being mocked (the same way of what they are doing). I’m really happy of being a member of this LDS church. I served my mission and reap the blessings of that service. My fiancee ever thinks that I was ahead of her in terms of authority I love her with all my heart. I know someday we will be judged according to what we did and what we say whether it’s good or not good to others.
Thanks for your opinion, but I must disagree. People have been using the outspoken feminist “character” in a negative way for a long time because it is not what they like to hear from us women-folk. I feel totally bombarded by this issue lately, and as a non-Mormon woman I am bothered by the fact that other young men and women in Utah have seemingly reverted back to the 1920s. Regardless of what you believe, this article is shaming people for questioning the things they have been taught to accept as fact. I believe questioning the “facts” of ones own surroundings and existence only leads to growth, whether that be a growth in faith, science, or something more creative. It is an intellectual and mature act humans fall into naturally. Please know, Dear Mr. Lemmony Things author, this is not the only thing or even the tipping point keeping you from baptizing me, your non-Mormon neighbor! Please stop acting like we have “one foot in” the baptismal pool. We have a knowledge, faith, morality, and love for humanity that does not currently, and according to this article, will never fit into your definition of spirituality. Be kind. Be understanding. Be aware that if women had always kept silent on issues like this, we would still be just a shadow.
First, her “one foot” comment was about her personal friend. She wasn’t speaking about everyone.
Second, the problem isn’t questioning. Besides… OW stopped questioning a while ago, they were full on demanding something happen, claiming to know more than the prophet… and God.
Also, no one has reverted back to the 1920’s. That is a laughable statement. And lastly, we are not keeping you from being baptized, your attitude about the church has hardened your heart against it. We could probably explain everything to you, and you would still find something to criticize.
Amen, Sister Lemmon. For what it’s worth, I wrote similar thoughts here:
http://ohwellmormon.blogspot.com/2014/06/use-fourth.html
I started to read the first blog and it was too negative to read. So I will just say what I think. The head of this church is God. He is the same yesterday today and forever. If we have a complaint about His church we need to take it up with Him. I was confused when I heard protesting because I thought, the prophet is just an instrument in the hand of God. He does what God tells him. Just like Joseph Smith he cannot change God’s commandments he can only fulfill what God tells him. As the world gets more wicked the righteous will be more separated from the wicked. I am so thankful to have the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as a firm foundation to help me remember the important things in life . I am a mom of 6 children and am thankful for God’s plan. 🙂
Of course Christ sparked doubt when he was here. He questioned the Pharisees (who were the church and temple authorities of the time) to the point that they wanted him dead or imprisoned.
That’s fine to have your opinion that these women are going about things in the wrong way, but let’s not pretend Christ’s life was free of controversy. He didn’t live in the Greg Olsen painting many of my fellow Mormons picture Him in.
@ kat
Matt 5:17 “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am come not to destroy the law but to fulfill it.”
Christ did not spark doubt – he clarified what the Pharisees were doing unrighteously. True, he went against the temple and church authorities at the time, but remember how they distorted the true gospel. They were out to make a profit over the temple traditions, and He had to cleanse the temple due to their wickedness. The Old Testament was focused around Christ until Moses and the ten commandments gave them a lesser law to live by because they couldn’t handle the fullness of the gospel at that time. Christ came to restore what the Israelites had lost while in Egypt. (Any biblical scholar is welcome to correct my inaccuracies if any).
That is not what is going on in this case. KK is not Christ. She is not trying to restore anything. She is trying to change what has been since before the world began.
Handbook 2 Administering the Church
1.1.5
The Role of the Church
The Church provides the organization and means for teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to all of God’s children. It provides the priesthood authority to administer the ordinances of salvation and exaltation to all who are worthy and willing to accept them.
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The Church is not here to satisfy everyone’s need for power and social justice. It is simply here to provide the means to administer ordinances (baptism, marriage) to those who are worthy and willing. I’m sure there are men out there who wish they could carry a child and give birth but it’s not how it works. It’s God’s grand design and if you try to change his organization, well there you go. What are you going to argue next that Jesus was a man and that makes God a sexist because he chose a man over a woman to save us from our sins. This is ridiculous and we need to really look into our hearts and say do I have faith in the restored gospel or do I not and go from there.
I understand your feelings… but I find it very sad that several blogs are writing articles like this. You are stating your opinion on your “public” blog about being upset that the ordain women are sharing their opinions on a “public” blog. Kind of ironic, right? I believe being compassionate, understanding, and their friend would be a better approach than publicly shaming a group. Your post could ALSO potential hurt how people view Mormons. In fact I feel like a lot of non-members are actually siding more with the group, not over the doctrine disagreements, but because now every Mormon blog feels entitled to tell how disappointed they are in the group. The whole thing is rather sad, but every “blogger” must chime in cause it’s trending hahaha. I can understand that you think you are doing something good, however it doesn’t come across Christ like. You stated “When Christ walked the earth, not once did he sit before his disciples and spark doubt by asking one of them why something had to be.” Do you think Christ would write a blog to let everyone know why someone is wrong for what they did? Nope he would just love them. The opinions are those of your friends, sisters, and frankly, although you may never understand it… Christ does and that is all that matters.
Also, I know a few of these ladies and they do not “demand the priesthood’ or have ever “spoke negatively” about the church. It seems like everyone is just in shock that someone doesn’t agree with everything and feel it is okay to then belittle them. They have asked questions and want to talk to someone and no one responds. You don’t have to agree with them to be kind to them.
She’s not upset that they are stating their opinions on a blog. She is upset by their apostate ACTIONS during priesthood session.
We have a duty to stand for truth and right, that is what she is doing. She’s telling them their ACTIONS are wrong…. which they are. Nothing judgemental, cruel or offensive. People don’t like being told they are wrong, especially when they know it’s true.
Disagreeing and standing for God doesn’t mean we hate them. Those things are not synonymous. You can love someone you disagree with.
I know some of those women too, and they ARE demanding the priesthood… how often do I have to say read a dictionary? And I know even more that speak badly of the church. They don’t want the truth. They want the answer to fit their WANTS. And because they have been told no multiple times, it is somehow the leaders’ fault. They don’t want to be held accountable for their apostate actions.
Actions have consequences.
Amen, the church is a Kingdom not a democracy. It is run by common consent not voting, discussions, or the opinions of the masses. We can’t demand any type of response from the King or His representatives, especially considering that our King is a perfect, omniscient being. We only control our affiliation to the Kingdom. The idea of public discourse is only relevant within man made organizations where all opinions are equally flawed and diversity creates depth. The Kingdom on earth has never been governed by public discourse, because what is any mortal opinion going to add to God’s?
My big issue now is comparing the impact of OW’s public airing of their doctrinal misgivings, to how anti Mormons air their issues with our doctrine. AM’s take to blogs, cite their sources, usually include case examples from early church history, twist quotes from prophets, and put it out publicly to gain support and dissuade investigators from looking deeper. OW blog, contact news outlets, demonstrate in front of conference, cite early church leaders, twist the words of prophets to suit their needs, completely misinterpret conference addresses designed to clear up their doctrinal issues (like from E Oaks), and use the public exposure to try to force church leadership to make changes or include them in church administrative discussions. The two organizations act too similarly for my comfort.
Lastly, has anyone actually read what is on the OW site? Where does it say they have questions for the leaders? It days that they have pastured about equality, and have their own personal convictions about equality, and are faithfully looking for change. That is not a question. That is purported revelation and an agenda. Neither came thru the Lord’s established leaders.
@Kendra- I keep hearing this message about loving and understanding the OW, but after reading all of these comments, I am trying to understand what it is about our dissenting comments that are bad. The OW present their dissenting beliefs about inequality and they are hailed as equality pioneers, activists, and heros. Traditionalists present why we disagree with their doctrine, their methods, and don’t appreciate the effect it is having on the church image, and yet this means we aren’t being loving and accepting enough. Is that not the same double standard you are accusing us of? Let’s be honest, both sides have some that are name calling, but only one side also has the support of the anti-Mormon community. I find it troubling that no OW supporters are standing up against the anti Mormon vitriol that gets mixed into their message. There is nothing bad about sharing the truth from the prophets and apostles and defending true principles. It doesn’t mean we love them less, just that despite our love, we must stand up for what we know to be right, even if they feel marginalized by our beliefs.